Anyone interested in a playable B5 mod, read here

[Suicide Junkie]

Timstone said:
Fyron, I can understand you're proud of the armor. And you have right to be so. All in all it's an impressive piece of work with a high degree of reality. I certainly can appreciate that, but in terms of the mod it's too difficult. Because we have so many races (I planned 42 in total), we have lots and lots of choice in our components. And adding a stream of armor doesn't really improved the handling of the mod. Even a wreckless redneck should be able to jump right in and play a game, a manual for the mod isn't a surplus luxury, but should be compulsory.

*cough* *cough* SJ did the armor components.

The basic armor is TRIVIAL to understand. Press "show only latest", and use the best one you see. BAM.

The advanced armor is slightly more complicated. Use as much of the latest one as you are allowed by your current tech level. Save a about half your armor-tonnage for the basic armor. Shazam.

You have now graduated the SJ school of Armor design.

---

Redneck default: Load up on light armor, and research the currently-cheapest armor tech area (when you feel like it)

Inert Armor Physics
The application of physics and chemistry to making stronger armor materials.

Inert Armor Manufacturing
The mass production* of armor for space vehicles.

*Mass production == Cheaper per component.

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Please, before you go ripping and gutting, explain to me why you think this is so hard.
It has all been carefully designed for use with the Show only latest button, and with that on, you will only see the stuff worth using. Which of the visible armor types you want will depend on the strategic and tactical situations.

[Timstone]

Ehh... oops, sorry SJ.
Again I made the error. My humblest of apologies.

Explanation for gutting the armor bit (nice sentence, thanks for bringing in the gutting SJ):
Because the tech tree is already humongous, we would like to narrow down all the tech. Now, I'm a big fan of large tech trees, but this is a bit too much. And when you finally researched the armor you wanted soooo badly, you're a good 100 turns farther. Yeah, I know that's a strategic decision (what to chose), but it illustrats nicely that the armor bit is too cumbersome and a bit too unclear.

Edit:
Please don't be mad at us, we're just trying to make the mod a bit more quicker to play and to decorate the files in another way. Maybe it gets better, maybe it gets worse. Time will tell.

[Fyron]

That is not a problem with the armor techs at all. It is a problem with the absurdly slow pace of expansion and colony development. Speed those up to more reasonable levels and it will solve itself...

[Suicide Junkie]

If its pace you're worried about, then you have really been barking up the wrong tree.

To fix PACE, multiply the research point generation, or divide the tech area costs, or as Fyron mentioned, speed up colonization.
Don't muck with the poor little components, as they have absolutely nothing to do with research time.

[Timstone]

Haha... tjees, we have now two huge (as in important) opponents of the removal of the armor stuff. Removing them now would be cruel. Maybe, RagsX, we should reconsider. Anyway, the mod should first get a total rewrite before we can start adding or removing components. First things first. So let's concentrate on the facilties (my job) and the population and militia stuff (your job).

[Ragnarok-X]

Well simple as it is, i was a fan of babylon 5 since i first watched it. I was visiting these forums regulary about 4 years ago, eagerly awaiting a good release of the b5 mod, that was back when Val was here.
Now I followed the progress since years, and lately month. Latest achievements were the enhancments done by Timstone, Grumbler and Pathfinder (...).

Then we started a pbw game and i hate to say, but that game is barely any fun at all. Players are simply overwhelmed by the mod, there is too much to do or to consider. There is no development at all, even if there were, there are still to many things that need to be...repaired.

The mod will be totally revised. I have already adjusted most facilites cost/effect, as mentioned in my posted email. Population effect has been decreased/adjusted, but there is a lot of work still to do. One of the things that will be reworked IS the armor system. I have done a few testgames, and the game seems to have better "flow" now, everything seems to work just okay, at least from what i have seen.

I just took another more focused look at the files, and the armor system is just way to complicated.

There are about a DOUZEN tech areas.

Inert Armor Physics
Inert Armor Engineering
Inert Armor Manufacturing
Scattering Engineering
Scattering Manufacturing
Refractive Engineering
Refractive Manufacturing
Channeling Armor Engineering
Channeling Armor Manufactoring
Conductive Armor Engineering
Conductive Armor Manufactoring
Emmisive Armor Engineering
Emmisive Armor Manufactoring

This alone is already too much, but to make it worse, take a look at the armor component family. Offered are like a douzen different armors, all having "weird" names and classifications, names consisting of numbers, letters and additional thingies like primary, additional or whatever.
To make it even worse each armor needs SEVERAL tech requirements which can be far too EASILY be mixed up.
Imagine you have 3 tech areas and want to get a good armor...how are supposed to know WHAT exactly you need to research how far until you get that armor you want ?

There is definitly no point in going with the current system in the long way. No offense SJ, but if you want to do a realistic mod then the armor system is okay. Unfortunally i dont want to make the b5 mod even more realistic, i want to make if FUN.

The expansion/development pace will reworked as well, dont worry. I just dont really get the point in argueing with people who most probably not invested as much time as i did into the mod. I know SJ and Fyron are good members of the community, but i have a goal to achieve, and reworking the armor system is a part of it.

After all it is Timstone and i who will do the work / have done the work, and im positive things will be far superior once we are done.

Tell me Fyron, if you think the armor system is so great, why didnt you implented it into your adamant mod as well ? Maybe because its to difficult to get a good use by the players ?

I really like the "cheap" armor system of adamant mod. Research and you get components which offer more damage resistance. Thats fine. Have components with 10kT and 1kT size, everything will be alright. Just a small note, i dont get the point in using 0kT armor components at all. I could use pack my ship with those components until my shipyard need another turn to construct it. So lets say i have like 30 of those 0kT armors on my ship, but its the point ? Once out of combat i need to repair the vessel, how am i supposed to repair 30+ components ?

I may even consider adding my own armor system, which is acompnent with a size of 0 kT and a basic damage resistance of 50kT, and has a scale mount for every shipsize, so it will take lets say 250% damage on cruisers and 125% damage when scaleused on frigates, in addition to convential armor layeringg

The size of most tech areas is okay, its the way research points are accumulated which is FU. If research-facilites are build faster, everything will be alright, at least partly. Since population has less effect on production things are more faster than ever.

[Timstone]

Wow, impressive post RagsX. Me like it!
How about the facilities? Shall I send you the ones I've done for the mod I wanted to produce myself?

Oh yeah, shall we relocale our conversations to the original B5 thread? This will add to it's impressive number of Posts, as well as revigorating one of the oldest threads. Let me start.

[Ragnarok-X]

Alright, great idea. a 300+ pages post is quite a good advertisment

I will report my latest post there, i suggest this thread to be "closed", or at least suggst noone to post here anymore.

[Fyron]

Tell me Fyron, if you think the armor system is so great, why didnt you implented it into your adamant mod as well ? Maybe because its to difficult to get a good use by the players ?

I really like the "cheap" armor system of adamant mod. Research and you get components which offer more damage resistance. Thats fine. Have components with 10kT and 1kT size, everything will be alright. Just a small note, i dont get the point in using 0kT armor components at all. I could use pack my ship with those components until my shipyard need another turn to construct it. So lets say i have like 30 of those 0kT armors on my ship, but its the point ? Once out of combat i need to repair the vessel, how am i supposed to repair 30+ components ?

Because I am too lazy to do all that work... And I don't really need all of the "emissive" armor types from B5, since I wasn't creating the B5 universe, but one that includes shields as a major defensive system instead. Everything past the leaky armors wouldn't really fit the concept I had in mind for Adamant, since they overlap by using crystalline armor abilities... An early Version of Adamant did actually use the leaky armors from B5, but I wanted to change them to make it more original...

12 tech areas are nothing. It is not complicated. Please leave the wonderful armor system that SJ made alone. It works admirably for a B5 universe, and makes it all the more fun to play the mod. Variety is a good thing. It would be a shame to ruin it. Do not look at it as 12 areas of armor, it is more like 6, and you have to factor in the lack of shield technologies... The types are just more and more advanced.