Possible bug (major effect in the game!)?

[Karibu]

I just registered into this forum to ask your opinion of the following:

I play SEIV pbw. Last turn I noticed that one system over 200 ship enemy fleet simply disappeared leaving only 9 ships behind. They didin't go any other system, for I see those systems also. I don't believe they cloacked either, because I looked movement log stepped(day by day) and I saw that fleet moving 3 sectors and then 200 ships simply disappeared.

Also, that player skipped turn, so his AI was playing for him. Is AI able to do something we humans can't in pbw?

Firstly: with simultaneous turns if you want to cloack your ships, you have to do it at the beginning of the turn. It can't be ordered to be done in the middle, after you have already moved.

Secondly: If that player had resource shortage, ships would be scrapped from here and there, few at the time, not 200 ships all together.

Thirdly: If AI decided to scrap those ships, it would have to be done at the beginning of the turn, not in the middle. Furthermore, scrapping is not possible in the middle of the space (except if you have space yard ship included in the fleet).

Any opiniosn & comments here, plese. Should I sent this turn I received to someone for a closer look? If there is a bug which scraps fleets containing over 200 ships, I want to know that. I contacted that player, whose fleet disappeared, but I am still waiting a response.

Oh, yes. The game is Gold and patch 1.84 included.

[ February 14, 2003, 10:52: Message edited by: Karibu ]

[Fyron]

The most likely explanation is that a Stellar Manipulation was used. Either the star blew up, the system was turned into a nebula, or a black hole was created. Check carefully for those things in the area.

[PsychoTechFreak]

Other possible causes:
- Ships can be scrapped, no matter about the number of them. Everything you need is a spaceyard, and I guess in this case it could have been a SY component of just one of the ships

- Can ships be hidden in a fleet or do you always see the number of ships in a fleet?

- Part of the fleet could have been sent to an obscuring sector storm (I often like to do things like this)

- Random events.

[ February 14, 2003, 13:35: Message edited by: PsychoTechFreak ]

[Karibu]

There was no battle in that system what so ever. I'll explain the political situation of the game:

Alliance A includes 2 strong races (A1, A2), which are in war against alliance B. Alliance A races has partnership and they have war only against alliance B and trade with other races in the galaxy.

Alliance B has 3 races (B1, B2, B3). All 3 races have partnership with each other.

Ships which disappeared belonged to player A1. This happened in a system, which is in the left side of the galaxy and deep in a the territory of player B1. All other races were several systems away -> present was only 200+ ships fleet of player A1 and few fighters of player B1.

Now, like I said, player B1 (me) has partnership with ALL the races who have war against player A1 (means Alliance B), which means I know the exact location of all ships which could fight against player A1. Also, members of Alliance B is in constant contact with each other and we negotiate every move we take before submitting our turns.

This is the reason I know there was no other fleet in presence in the system which could have damaged that fleet. I don't think any fleet in the game at the moment could have beaten that fleet. The player A1 is psychic and religious and it uses talisman, suberters and computer viruses himself, so it would have been very difficult to beat him using same weapons (both would steal each other ships).

Though, I grant 1% change that it is possible that one other race (2. biggest in the galaxy, though neutral in the situation) could have brought big enough a fleet to have a combat against player A1. But that player located other side of the galaxy (large or huge map, can't remember. Over 200 systems anyway) and he would have had no benefit of bringing his fleet (through dozens of systems and several players) in a system where he would have gained nothing to fight any player who were in the system and secondly that player needs all his forces to secure his borders against third biggest player in the game.

I could explain even more of the situation and politics but trust me on this, there was no fleet of that size which could have passed into that system unnoticed. Only reason I can imagine is a bug of some sort OR someething went wrong in turn execution OR AI on the other side could do something which normal players could not (like I said before, player skipped his turn and AI took over).

[edit] I grant the possibility of random event. IIRC it was set to catastrophic. I will tell more when I can catch the other player. I hope he answers my mail soon.

[ February 14, 2003, 14:01: Message edited by: Karibu ]

[dogscoff]

I know the exact location of all ships which could fight against player A1.

You misunderstand me. I suggested that the fleet could have been in a battle with itself as a result of the crew insurrection intel project:

Player b2 uses crew insurrection to steal 2 or 3 of the more powerful ships in a1's mystery fleet. Battle begins, and because the insurrected ships are armed with allegiance subverters, they capture even more of a1's ships, which capture more ships... this kind of thing can and does happen.

Soon b2 has almost as many ships in the sector as a1, and they have all used their allegiance subverters, so they resort to regular weapons and blow the crap out of one another, leaving only a handful of ships alive.

While a random event is technically possible, I can't think of any that would destroy nearly 200 ships at once - one or two ships yes, 200 no.

[geoschmo]

Karibu,

I have investigated the issue. You are talking about the "Last Man Standing" game correct?

Obviously I cannot tell you what actually happened since these ships don't belong to your empire. But I can assure you that what occured is completely explainable within normal operation of the game and is not the result of a bug. I am 100% sure of this, there is no doubt.

You can of course continue trying to contact Church to get his explaination for the events.

Geoschmo
PBW Admin Team

[Slick]

Just to be clear and conclusively rule out the mine theory:

Even if you had a partnership with other empires, you don't see thier mines. You don't get hit by them either, so you don't know where they are unless you are told. Since you had a partnership with 2 other empires, they could potentially have placed 200 mines in the sector of disappearance. And (unlikely, but) if those 2 allies had a trade or better treaty with another empire, a this 3rd empire could also have had 100 mines in the same sector.

When you say that the fleet could sweep "any amount" of mines, does this mean >200?

The reason I bring this up is I got bLasted once where I had a large fleet with enough mine sweepers to take out 100 mines and it got decimated due to 2 empires heavily mining the same sector. I swept 100 mines and got hit by the rest. This was not obvious to me and I first thought it was a bug.

Like I said, just to conclusively rule out mines, just how many mines could the fleet sweep?

Slick.

[Slick]

Whoops, upstaged by Geoshmo.

Slick.

[couslee]

There is another option other than scrap fleet, and it does not require a space yard. The "fire on ship" command. Why this option might have been chosen I have no idea. But it is another possibility. Of course, they would have to be being moved in a "shift click" manner and not a fleet. Not sure if the AI actually fleets it's ships or not.

Just a thought.

Or, a perhaps good portion of the fleet was fighters/drones. If so, perhaps a number of them were remotely recovered. Did the fleet have ships with transport capacity?

[ February 14, 2003, 16:32: Message edited by: couslee ]

[Karibu]

Originally posted by Slick:
Just to be clear and conclusively rule out the mine theory:

Even if you had a partnership with other empires, you don't see thier mines. You don't get hit by them either, so you don't know where they are unless you are told. Since you had a partnership with 2 other empires, they could potentially have placed 200 mines in the sector of disappearance. And (unlikely, but) if those 2 allies had a trade or better treaty with another empire, a this 3rd empire could also have had 100 mines in the same sector.

When you say that the fleet could sweep "any amount" of mines, does this mean >200?

The reason I bring this up is I got bLasted once where I had a large fleet with enough mine sweepers to take out 100 mines and it got decimated due to 2 empires heavily mining the same sector. I swept 100 mines and got hit by the rest. This was not obvious to me and I first thought it was a bug.

Like I said, just to conclusively rule out mines, just how many mines could the fleet sweep?

Slick.

Yes. I am talking about Last man Standing.

I am aware of the tactic with laying two minefields in the same spot. However, there was none. I would have known if my allies would have made minefields to the current location. As far as I know, they haven't had any ships in that system excluding scouts during the game. Also that specific location would have been not a place any player would have made large minefields like that. It was beside warp point, but where ships would not normally move when going through warp point into other planets.

Also, intel is disallowed in our game. There is two possible readon I could think. Enemy's resource shortage -> ships scrapping and random catastrophic event. I haven't reached that other player yet... I will tell you when I get his answer.

However, I must admit that I am not unhappy of how things has happened. That fleet was one turn away from my Last homeworld =)