Why should troops make a population jubilant...

geoschmo · #1 July 17th, 2002, 06:41 PM

They should keep them from rioting perhaps, and keep them producing to a point. But not neccesarily cause them to be happy. The whole planetary happiness thing needs a little more depth I think.

At the very least their should be seperate readings for mood and productivity. Troops could positivly affect productivity up to a certain point, but negativly affect mood once you reach a certain threshold. And different races would have different thresholds where they feel it's too many troops hanging around.

Mood could affect productivity the way happiness does now, but it shouldn't be the overriding factor it is now. And rioting should be a condition, a state of being. Not a description of the happiness level. Rioting should be a result of the population being in a bad mood, not a description of their mood.

The populace should be be able to be very angry at you, but not be activly rioting because of the troops garrisoned there.

And there should be factors that you can activley change that will affect the planets mood. IIRC there was something like that for SEIII wasn't there? Like you could crank up production or something, but the people would start getting upset. I do rememember that if you left too many tropps around they would start to riot.

Give me control over production quotas. Default would be 100%, but you could crank it up and get more resources out of the planet, but at the cost of a decline in mood, which long term will negativly affect production, and have the posibility of causing a riot.

Allow me to grant a planet it's independance.

Geoschmo

Q · #2 July 17th, 2002, 06:59 PM

I understand your point and you recall the happiness system in SE III correctly, but I found it just too easy to keep the population happy in SE III: reduce the production for a few turns and they changed from rioting to jubiliant!
I like the system in SE IV better: if you have only one colony in a a system that is riotimg and no troop transport or other ships around you will have a serious problem.
And think of the troops more as a police that protects the population, then you can explain why they react positively to their presence.

Jmenschenfresser · #3 July 17th, 2002, 07:13 PM

This is why as I stated a long time ago, I favor a multi-tiered empire morale system over happiness. Local problems and Empire problems equal a morale rating.

You are absolutly right in saying that the thing, no matter what it's future is, needs depth.

I would then look to the localized morale settings and create a population/troop/threat ratio.

geoschmo · #4 July 17th, 2002, 07:15 PM

I agree it was too easy to make them happy in SEIII, I wouldn't want to go back to that. But I am just thinking there should be more things that can make them upset. And stuff that you actually directly impact. As it is now, you can make them happy, but you can't really tick off your people. What fun is being an evil overlord if you can't inspire fear in your subjects.

And troops are good and should imporove the mood to a point, I just think beyond a certain point they should be a negative. Perhaps it should be more complex. Troops on the planet when enemy ships are about make the people happy, but when no enemy ships are around too many troops make the people unhappy. Of course that might be too complicated.

[ July 17, 2002, 18:17: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

Q · #5 July 17th, 2002, 07:47 PM

Yes more depth and more factors influencing the happiness would be great. Especially as already proposed by others that the use of certain weapons would have a negative impact on the happiness according to the basic happiness type of the empire. Or the climate should have an effect too. If I am not wrong, until now it only influences the reproduction but not the happiness.

Suicide Junkie · #6 July 17th, 2002, 08:16 PM

Having "too many troops" in SE3 was when you had more troops than cargo space on the planet.

The people got mad because the army would have to start using the civilian's houses to stay in or something.

It may work the same way in SE4, and I've just never dropped more troops than the planet can hold.
Typically, the planet is conquered before that can happen.

Gandalph · #7 July 17th, 2002, 09:01 PM

I think that mood and production should be seperate entities. Troops should be able to maintain certain levels of production, but not necessarily keep the population happy. If a large contingent of soldiers arrived in my sector, I would continue to work under threat of life or limb, but I certainly would not be very pleased with my government.

Baron Munchausen · #8 July 17th, 2002, 09:39 PM

Ayup...

The biggest problem is that there is no difference between your troops among your people, and your troops among a conquered people. In general, it does make people feel more secure to have their own military around. They called out the National Guard around the airports after Sept. 11 for a reason, and it had nothing to do with 'improving airport security'. Guys standing around with M16s can't do squat about bombs hidden in suitcases or shoes. I don't think it would have made people feel secure to see UN troops standing around the airports...

They parked some US Navy ships in New York harbor for the same reason.

So, morale boosting troops or ships make sense with your own race. Just not with other races. Possibly MM could make some sort of 'special modifiers' for the happiness of non-native races in your empire. When 'happiness' is above a certain level, troops or ships have one effect ('calming' because they intimidate people from rioting) but when 'happiness' is below a certain level they ought to have an opposite effect! Occupied people should quite reasonably be angered by really obvious signs of occupation.

To do this properly would probably require some sort of 'troop to population ratio' controls.

Beyond that, there ought to be some more 'persistent' attitudes for populations, as I have said elsewhere. Every race should not be the same in captivity. Nor should all conquered races become like you own race.

[ July 17, 2002, 21:51: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]

Ed Kolis · #9 July 17th, 2002, 10:17 PM

What if troops simply pulled happiness levels toward some median point such as Indifferent?

Of course, this whole thing would probably lead to way too much micromanagement to optimize your population's happiness...

geoschmo · #10 July 17th, 2002, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Baron Munchausen:
Nor should all conquered races become like you own race.

Actually, attitude is the one area conquered races differ from your own race. However all conquered races are treated the same by the happiness file, and this is not right. Some races should be more passive. An empire conquering a planet full of Klingons would expect more trouble than an empire conquering a planet full of Vulcans. But as far as SEIV is concerned, they are the same, and only slightly different than your own population. They have a different base anger change, but they are affected the same by troops and ships and other stuff.