Proportions mod 1.5.2 released (and web page)

[PvK]

Proportions 1.5.2 is now available from the new Proportions web page at www.latibulum.com/pvk/proportions.

Like 1.4.2 did for 1.4, 1.5.2 corrects some issues with 1.5, without changing much else, for players who have started a game with 1.5 and who don't want things to change much, but would like to fix some problems with certain components.

The next Version will be 1.6, and will change some more things, but it should still be possible to upgrade any game started with an earlier Version to a later Version. Just some abilities of existing things may be adjusted around.

Below are the changes introduced with 1.5.2:

Changes Log:
============

Version 1.5.2:

* This Version mainly fixes things in 1.5, without making major changes
to balance or function.
* Fixed problem with upgrading sensors turning into platform fire control
centers.
* Added small supply generation and storage to solar sails to allow them
to drive ships without other supply components, and because it's
appropriate for them to do some of this.
* Fixed lower-tech quantum generators.
* Adjusted cultural maintenance modifiers to compensate for shift to the
new relative scale it uses. Also tweaked a couple of other cultural
modifiers.
* Adjusted ground combat damage multiplier to extend ground combat times.
* Added small supply and tiny to-hit modifiers to gravitic drives.
* Changed graphics, names, and descriptions for Armors IV through VII.
* Added cargo ability to shipyards, repair bays, remote miners, cobalt
warheads, and mine sweepers, to allow them to use non-military hull
types (e.g. transport hulls).
* Reduced damage resistance of cobalt warheads.
* Made supply compartment and niche appear even with "show latest."
* Added a -10 bad event chance to homeworld cultural centers, to decrease
the chance of game-upsetting catastrophic events.
* Made minor adjustments to system type abilities. Organic infestations
and forming stars now do something, and nebulae effects are more varied.
* Reduced size of self-defense cannon slightly.

PvK

[ZeroAdunn]

Hey man, I would just like to say thanks for the mod, it is one of my Favorites, right next to the Pirates & Nomads mod, it makes SEIV a lot more like what I want it o be.

I was wondering about ship construction though, this is something that has bothered me from the beginning. Shouldn't it be quicker to build ships at an orbital spaceyard?

[PvK]

Thanks for the feedback, ZeroAdunn!

Do you mean faster, in absolute terms, or "faster than on a planet"?

If you mean the latter, then I can see arguments from both sides. In Proportions, you do have to have 100 million people (and a spaceyard) on a planet before the planetary rate reaches the rate of an orbital yard (and 100M people can take some effort to achieve on a colony).

In a yard in space, you wouldn't have to get the completed ship into orbit, but you would have to get the materials there, probably work in a weightless vaccuum (which has both pros and cons), and are isolated from planetary infrastructure support, and so on. I'd say it was up to a lot of technical details and could go either way.

I figure a developed planet like a homeworld should have a higher rate than a single orbital yard.

So in Proportions, the planetary rate, once the planet is developed (represented semi-abstractly by population), includes being able to multi-task the construction in a way that has to be abstracted since there can only be one planetary queue in the game. Meanwhile, you can build as many orbital shipyards as you want, so in that sense, orbital can always out-produce planetary, even if not in a one-on-one comparison.

PvK

[Aub]

PvK,

there is something I'm missing about Self-Defense cannons. It looks like they require the same tech as Point-Defense cannons, cost only marginally less (e.g. 15 vs 20 tons) and are almost useless against fighters (at least in multiplayer). And if that's not enough, they lack the 70% bonus PD cannons have.

What is the reason to install them then? It looks like I'm better off with the original point-defense cannons!

Now what did I miss?

Aub

[PvK]

That's about right, Aub. They also cost half as much, and I will likely be adjusting the to-hit mods and size (probably to 10kt) more for 1.6.

The idea is that sometimes you want an important ship, base, or planet to protect only itself. The short range in this case is something you want, because it prevents non-essential targets from drawing your defenses away. Even with the +70 PDC, fighters in Proportions will often be missed.

PvK

quote:

---

Originally posted by Aub:
PvK,

there is something I'm missing about Self-Defense cannons. It looks like they require the same tech as Point-Defense cannons, cost only marginally less (e.g. 15 vs 20 tons) and are almost useless against fighters (at least in multiplayer). And if that's not enough, they lack the 70% bonus PD cannons have.

What is the reason to install them then? It looks like I'm better off with the original point-defense cannons!

Now what did I miss?

Aub

---

[travislp]

Hey, love the mod. I have one question though. How did you get the default facilities changed to use your culture centers instead of the normal facilities

[PvK]

Thanks travislp!

If you look at the AI files for facility construction, you will find a table I made in the help section at the top. What I did was to take a list of components that had little or no effect when added to facilities (and are not used on existing facilities), and then use them as identifying abilities that tell the AI what to build on planets. That way, it doesn't decide that cultural centers are the best for everything, and embark on 400-year development projects that consume all their resources, like in Version 1.4 and earlier.

PvK

[oleg]

PvK, thank you very much for this mod !

I tried the mod first time yesterday and I am now totally enchanted by it !

This is indeed how SEIV should be made in the first place, IMHO.

The mod is so good and so revolutionary that I want to suggest to change the mod name to something more catchy, like "real universe mod", "SEIV as it should be", etc.

Other mods, like P&N or Devnulmod, have nice and inventive ship components and facilities but none comes even close to the fantastic change in game play provided by Proportions mod.

You mentioned in mod info that this mod is not good for single player because AI is not adapted to it. However, I think that with some AI tweaks it can be actually made much more chalenging than even TDM-Modpac.

Just consider what happens in "normal" SEIV when you play against, for example, medium-bonus AI.
At first, AI has an edge due to the 3X bonus to production, science and constraction. But soon enough, more efficient expansion and build up by human player eradicates this advantage. This is may not be true in "propotions". Home worlds are extremely important. Even after human player colonize dozens or so worlds, homeworld still provide you the major chunk of production and science. It means that even after many years and frantic build-up by human player, 3X AI bus applied to its homeworld, should still gives AI a big edge. I like it, I really, really like it.

The only problem is how to make AI to protect homeworld at all cost. There was a thread some time ago about planetary defence and how to beef it up. There were some very good ideas posted, as I remember.

There are some good weapon changes in this mod. I certainly welcome better torpedoes. However, it made some nice racial weapons next to useless. For exapmle, temporal canons and high-energy magnifiers are completely inferior to improved quantum torpedoes and WMG.

Overall, crystalline trait needs either decrease in cost or ehhanced weapons/facilities. The planetary development is now much more important and while organic (replicant center), temporal (temporal space yard) and religious (nature shrine) help you, crystalline gives you nothing in this respect. Psychic may need some adjustments too.

Cheers and thank you very much again for this mod.

[ 25 March 2002: Message edited by: oleg ]

[ 25 March 2002: Message edited by: oleg ]

[PvK]

Oleg, I'm really glad you and others are enjoying Proportions so much! Thanks for writing in about it!

quote:

---

Originally posted by oleg:
PvK, thank you very much for this mod !

I tried the mod first time yesterday and I am now totally enchanted by it !

This is indeed how SEIV should be made in the first place, IMHO.

The mod is so good and so revolutionary that I want to suggest to change the mod name to something more catchy, like "real universe mod", "SEIV as it should be", etc.

Other mods, like P&N or Devnulmod, have nice and inventive ship components and facilities but none comes even close to the fantastic change in game play provided by Proportions mod.

---

That's nice to hear. However I don't think everyone would prefer it to regular SE4 or other mods. Mainly if you're interested in more realistic and steady scale and proportions (in several senses), that's what it does. It makes for a slower game, though, in terms of how long it takes to develop colonies and technology. Personally, I like the slower game because there is much less micromanagement to do to colonies each turn, and because game situations are more stable (a planet is never going to be built up from a lifeless rock to fully developed in a year or two, the way it can be in the unmodded game). However, the unmodded game offers the ability to get results a lot faster.

The mod was called Proportions because it started as just the size and scale adjustments (and a few tweaks) from a larger mod called Foundations which I didn't manage to complete in time for the Gold disk (and which I hope to finish some time after I'm satisfied with Proportions). Foundations, if I ever do finish it, is like Proportions but it also revises and develops the tech tree a lot.

For some players, SE4 is already very strategic and the pace is right for them. I'm really glad to see there are quite a few players interested in playing at this different pace and scale.

quote:

---

You mentioned in mod info that this mod is not good for single player because AI is not adapted to it. However, I think that with some AI tweaks it can be actually made much more chalenging than even TDM-Modpac.

Just consider what happens in "normal" SEIV when you play against, for example, medium-bonus AI.
At first, AI has an edge due to the 3X bonus to production, science and constraction. But soon enough, more efficient expansion and build up by human player eradicates this advantage. This is may not be true in "propotions". Home worlds are extremely important. Even after human player colonize dozens or so worlds, homeworld still provide you the major chunk of production and science. It means that even after many years and frantic build-up by human player, 3X AI bus applied to its homeworld, should still gives AI a big edge. I like it, I really, really like it.

---

Yes, you're right about that. That's one of the major points of the mod - to greatly reduce the tendency for the widest-expanding player to completely dominate the game very quickly. Even if an AI is a neutral or is stuck in a corner of the map behind black holes or something, it will at least have reasonable tech and a developed fleet even if players find them later in the game.

Important advantages can still be built by developing colonies, but it takes a lot of time and effort to do so.

The AI is getting better, and will improve more in later Versions. The original Version 1.3 wasn't very good because it would only try to build cultural centers on its colonies. The 1.5 AI is pretty good (especially Amon'krie) but has two main weaknesses - it rarely builds long-ranged ships, and in theory its planets could use more defense (although, it does tend to build some good powerful defenses, but not TONS of defenses, like a human can). The first problem is important in quadrants with very many planetless systems, because the AI will often not explore past them because its ships are too short-ranged.

I will work on improving these. I know how to fix the range problem, and I think the first Gold patch might let me fix the second problem too, but it is a fairly large amount of work so I just haven't gotten to it yet.

quote:

---

The only problem is how to make AI to protect homeworld at all cost. There was a thread some time ago about planetary defence and how to beef it up. There were some very good ideas posted, as I remember.

There are some good weapon changes in this mod. I certainly welcome better torpedoes. However, it made some nice racial weapons next to useless. For exapmle, temporal canons and high-energy magnifiers are completely inferior to improved quantum torpedoes and WMG.

Overall, crystalline trait needs either decrease in cost or ehhanced weapons/facilities. The planetary development is now much more important and while organic (replicant center), temporal (temporal space yard) and religious (nature shrine) help you, crystalline gives you nothing in this respect. Psychic may need some adjustments too.

---

I will look at these and make some adjustments for 1.6.

(1.5 did increase the shard cannon damage and some other things, so it's at least good against organic armor. I'll take another look at the other weapons, though.)

PvK

[ 25 March 2002: Message edited by: PvK ]

[PsychoTechFreak]

Please, take into account also the time which is necessary until you get these good racial techs.

In proportions it will be hard to exceed your research points much beyond 30,000.
It would take about:
Replicant I 2.8 years
Replicant III 7.8 years
Nature Shrine III 1.4 years
BTW the good old talisman would be hard to research, more than 30 years!

Edit: I guess the war shrine 7% attack bonus and the temporal I-don't-know-foreseers facilitie 15% attack bonus are of interest also, because of the changes in Proportions warfare.

[ 26 March 2002: Message edited by: PsychoTechFreak ]