Stronger Planets mod idea

[Emperor's Child]

Have you ever thought that planets have, well, colossal area to emplace weapons that aren't modeled well in the games? I've been thinking of a mod that would change the balance of game play in favor of planetary-based defenses which would draw games out quite significantly and require pretty large fleets to crack a heavily defended planet's defenses.

Think about it. If you had weapons that could reach out and touch somebody, what prevents you from just placing bucketloads of them on critical planets you want to defend? Our own moon could hold literally millions of missile silos.

I've been considering a mod along the following lines: Significantly increase the storage space on planets to allow rather massive defenses should a player choose to put them there. (easy mod, AI's would have to be tweaked to take advantage of this).

Where I'm going with this is to get some feedback on this. Has anybody tried something like this? (The bunker weapons mod in the UM comes to mind) I have the inkling that it would tend to unbalance the game since the first player who could amass a planet-cracking fleet would then just begin to steamroller everybody else. Thoughts?

[ 05 February 2002: Message edited by: Emperor's Child ]

[skigrinder]

EC, I feel the same way about planetary defense and have made a small modification to the Components.txt file that has been pretty effective.

I like one-player games on 255-system maps with 8-10 AI’s.
The AI’s have been given special racial abilities and all bonuses available without modifying the AI files.
Team mode (all AI against the single human) is selected.
The role I like to play is one of non-aggression in a very aggressive universe.
My race builds colony ships and expands until running into the AI.
No warships are built. However, I do research and create boarding ships.
Planetary defense is left entirely up to the planets themselves.
Research and Intelligence are the focus for my race – not shipbuilding and warfare in space.
Eventually, I develop Puppet Political Parties and begin ‘persuading’ alien planets toward my philosophies.

This strategy would be impossible without some sort of planetary defense mechanism.
In order to accomplish this, I’ve created a new weapon type (with three levels) called ‘Planetary Defense Missile Spread’ that is researched as part of the ‘Missile Weapons’ tech branch.
Small weapons platforms are built on each planet and can, therefore only be used for defensive purposes.
Range, Damage, and Seeker Speed values for the ‘Planetary Defense Missile Spread’ are inflated so as to simulate a large number of individual missiles fired from a large number of positions on the planet.
Size of the ‘Planetary Defense Missile Spread’ component is small.
Reload Rate is set to 1.
Again, the theory is to simulate an overwhelming number of missiles coming from the planet.

The AI will create fleets large enough to get through the ‘Planetary Defense Missile Spread’.
I usually end up moving my population to Ringworlds which can hold a tremendous number of Weapon Platforms.

Here are the additions to the Components.txt file (you may want to modify some of these values to achieve your own balance):

Name := Planetary Defense Missile Spread I
Description := Group of missiles for planetary defense.
Pic Num := 67
Tonnage Space Taken := 20
Tonnage Structure := 20
Cost Minerals := 400
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 120
Vehicle Type := WeapPlatform
Supply Amount Used := 10
Restrictions := None
General Group := Weapons
Family := 2001
Roman Numeral := 1
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Missile Weapons
Tech Level Req 1 := 3
Number of Abilities := 0
Weapon Type := Seeking
Weapon Target := Ships
Weapon Damage At Rng := 200 200 200 200 200 200 200 200 200 200 200 200 200 200 200 200 200 200 200 200
Weapon Damage Type := Normal
Weapon Reload Rate := 1
Weapon Display Type := Seeker
Weapon Display := 1
Weapon Modifier := 0
Weapon Sound := capshpms.wav
Weapon Family := 2
Weapon Seeker Speed := 20
Weapon Seeker Dmg Res := 100

Name := Planetary Defense Missile Spread II
Description := Group of missiles for planetary defense.
Pic Num := 67
Tonnage Space Taken := 20
Tonnage Structure := 20
Cost Minerals := 400
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 80
Vehicle Type := WeapPlatform
Supply Amount Used := 10
Restrictions := None
General Group := Weapons
Family := 2001
Roman Numeral := 2
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Missile Weapons
Tech Level Req 1 := 5
Number of Abilities := 0
Weapon Type := Seeking
Weapon Target := Ships
Weapon Damage At Rng := 400 400 400 400 400 400 400 400 400 400 400 400 400 400 400 400 400 400 400 400
Weapon Damage Type := Normal
Weapon Reload Rate := 1
Weapon Display Type := Seeker
Weapon Display := 1
Weapon Modifier := 0
Weapon Sound := capshpms.wav
Weapon Family := 2
Weapon Seeker Speed := 20
Weapon Seeker Dmg Res := 200

Name := Planetary Defense Missile Spread III
Description := Group of missiles for planetary defense.
Pic Num := 67
Tonnage Space Taken := 20
Tonnage Structure := 20
Cost Minerals := 400
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 80
Vehicle Type := WeapPlatform
Supply Amount Used := 10
Restrictions := None
General Group := Weapons
Family := 2001
Roman Numeral := 3
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Missile Weapons
Tech Level Req 1 := 7
Number of Abilities := 0
Weapon Type := Seeking
Weapon Target := Ships
Weapon Damage At Rng := 900 900 900 900 900 900 900 900 900 900 900 900 900 900 900 900 900 900 900 900
Weapon Damage Type := Normal
Weapon Reload Rate := 1
Weapon Display Type := Seeker
Weapon Display := 1
Weapon Modifier := 0
Weapon Sound := capshpms.wav
Weapon Family := 2
Weapon Seeker Speed := 20
Weapon Seeker Dmg Res := 500

[Deathstalker]

I have always thought that planets were taken WAY too easily in this game. I tried to take this in consideration when doing my modd. Planet sizes (cargo space) was increased, and the size of weapon platforms was increased as well (wpn platforms are now 300/600/900 in size, the smallest planet has 1000 cargo space. Weapon mounts were added in line with those for se4 gold (added range and to hit bonus, just like base mounts) and a new facility 'Planetary Defense System' was added that adds shields to a planet (like massive shield generator) as well as more cargo space (depending on level of facility) and a small bonus to damage in the system (like the religious shrine). This along with the new/old weapons I created makes planets hard to take (for the most part). Missiles were givin a reload rate of 2 for normal, Short Range Missiles were givin a rate of 1 and a 'GodHammer' missile with high damage and high resistance but low speed was also added (with either 3 or 4 reload rate, still tweaking).

Also tried making a large fighter type to mimic the drones of se4 gold but not sure if it really works, the AI does some strange things with them.

Still tweaking the various values in the modd, should have a new Version up soon. (latest uploaded is 1.2, currently working on 1.3).

I'm sure that most people have a self made modd on their computer somewhere that adds/changes the game in some form. That is part of what most of us love about the game. Don't like a certain part of the game??, Simply change it to suit your needs.

[Emperor's Child]

Excellent ideas! This forum is great, lots of new approaches to the same problem!

I was originally going the line of component enhancements to get the same effect based on the bunkers idea found in the UM. Basically, instead of making the planet storage bigger, you can make weapon platform weapons and components cheaper and much more armored by using a component enhancement. In my tinkering effort I've played with the UM's weapon bunker values, and also added a armored flack station and missile silo along the same vein. Basically, the wep platforms have 5x weapons and 35x structure points compared to space based weps of the same tonnage. I'm still tinkering with the values to get the strengths right, probably need to be stronger to require a REALLY big fleet to take them out, and I'll add a "none" Category to allow for smaller/hardened shields and master computers.

Long Name := Planetary Defense Bunker Complex
Short Name := Bunkers
Description := Weapon sites are sited in subterrain stations which protect from enemy fire and houses gigantic power generators giving them a small range improvement.
Code := B
Cost Percent := 100
Tonnage Percent := 20
Tonnage Structure Percent := 700
Damage Percent := 200
Supply Percent := 200
Range Modifier := 4
Weapon To Hit Modifier := 90
Vehicle Size Minimum := 0
Weapon Type Requirement := Direct Fire
Vehicle Type := Weapon Platform

Long Name := Hardened Flack Bunker
Short Name := Flak Bunker
Description := Point Defense complex sited in subterrain stations which protects from enemy fire and houses gigantic power generators giving them a small range improvement.
Code := B
Cost Percent := 100
Tonnage Percent := 20
Tonnage Structure Percent := 700
Damage Percent := 200
Supply Percent := 200
Range Modifier := 2
Weapon To Hit Modifier := 90
Vehicle Size Minimum := 0
Weapon Type Requirement := Point-Defense
Vehicle Type := Weapon Platform

Long Name := Missile Silo Complex
Short Name := Silos
Description := Missile Silos are sited in a subterrain bunkers which protects from enemy fire and are easy to assemble.
Code := S
Cost Percent := 100
Tonnage Percent := 20
Tonnage Structure Percent := 700
Damage Percent := 200
Supply Percent := 200
Range Modifier := 0
Weapon To Hit Modifier := 90
Vehicle Size Minimum := 0
Weapon Type Requirement := Seeking
Vehicle Type := Weapon Platform

[ 05 February 2002: Message edited by: Emperor's Child ]

[geoschmo]

I like the idea of a planet strengthening mod. We had a long thread discussing it a few months ago, but I can't seem to find it now.

I did some tests back then and had some ideas. Weapon mounts for weapon platforms are good for direct fire weapons, but if you want to extend the range of missles you'll need to create new components. You can make weap platform only missles that have 20 range. Those will reach out and touch you.

I was going to make some that were smaller than typical ship CSM's. My thought was that the weapon platform was a representation of a command and control facility for a field of missle silos and that the platform itself didn't have to actually hold the missles. Of course there is no SE4 way to represent this, but by making the mssiles take up less space on the platform you can cram more in and get a similer effect.

You could also make them cheaper to build and faster. Construction on the planet wouldn't be limited by size constraints like you would be on a ship, so you could put more thrusters in a ground based missle (faster) and easier acces to construction materials shold make them cheaper to build.

Doing this you could have a planet protected by a fearsome number of missles that had much longer range than most if not all ship borne weapons. A large enough fleet and enough point defense could over come it, but it would take a lot, and they would take a pounding on the way in.

A half a dozen light cruisers should be able to destroy a border colony, but not a homeworld.

Geoschmo

[geoschmo]

Something else with the planetary defense missles. The reason you have to make a new component instead of using a weapon platfom mount is that mounts dont work right for seekers. You can extend the range with a mount, but it will only appear to extend the range. The missle will still disapear at the limit of the range set down in the component file.

But there is something you can do that is interesting in this regard. The absolute range limit for any weapon in the component file is 20. You could make a planetary defense missle that has a range of 20, and then make a +15 range weapon platform mount for seekers. The missle will still only do damage out to 20, but it could target and launch against anything on the combat map. If effect it could "lead" the target, since the ship will be moving in towards the planet. By the time the missle runs out of gas the target may have closed the distance and be in range.

I can see a possible problem with this though in strategic combat. If the attacker designed a large, powerful ship and gave it orders to not get hurt, the planet may send waves of missles after it without doing any damage while the rest of the ships move in and bLast it.

Geoschmo

[ 05 February 2002: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

[Q]

I have done something like that in my modifications:

1.) I doubled the cargo space of planets and make domed planet hold half of the cargo of non-domed planet: So domed colonies have the same cargo space as non-domed colonies in standard SE IV.

2.) I made weapon mounts for weapon platforms with up to an increase of the range by 6 and an important increase of the damage done.

3.) Created shields for weapon platforms that are 50% stronger than for ships.

4.) Increased the damaged needed to kill population by 3x.

The AI handles this quite well, it even helps him because in standard SE IV frequently his production is blocked by "no storage capacity available".
And it's really hard to knock out a decently developed colony in this modification!

[tkobo]

I must say I like and agree with almost all said in this post.

Q,i believe i like your solution the best.
Would it be possible to get a copy and instructions on how to add it to my game ?

[Baron Munchausen]

quote:

---

Originally posted by geoschmo:
Something else with the planetary defense missles. The reason you have to make a new component instead of using a weapon platfom mount is that mounts dont work right for seekers. You can extend the range with a mount, but it will only appear to extend the range. The missle will still disapear at the limit of the range set down in the component file.

But there is something you can do that is interesting in this regard. The absolute range limit for any weapon in the component file is 20. You could make a planetary defense missle that has a range of 20, and then make a +15 range weapon platform mount for seekers. The missle will still only do damage out to 20, but it could target and launch against anything on the combat map. If effect it could "lead" the target, since the ship will be moving in towards the planet. By the time the missle runs out of gas the target may have closed the distance and be in range.

I can see a possible problem with this though in strategic combat. If the attacker designed a large, powerful ship and gave it orders to not get hurt, the planet may send waves of missles after it without doing any damage while the rest of the ships move in and bLast it.

Geoschmo

[ 05 February 2002: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

---

This is a problem with combat strategies in general. It's not specific to the situation you describe. I haven't gotten into a major combat situation with a fully equipped 'multi-function' task force in my current games yet, but up to the Last major game I played it was still possible to play 'bull fighter' with the AI by teasing with PDC cruisers. It would mindlessly target the PDC ship because it's total firepower was higher than any other ship -- even though it was only usable against missiles & units... Just keep the PDC cruiser a ways behind the main combat ships and the AI ships charge right into the teeth of your best fighters, while firing at the distant PDC ship. You get free 'point blank' attacks for your whole battle fleet at the possible expense of a PDC cruiser or two. Or maybe not even that if they don't manage to hit it very often.

As far as seekers and mounts, I think seekers need a change. With mounts it's now possible to have beam weapons that reach very nearly the range of missiles. This takes away one of the primary advantages of seekers. We need to either let missiles have a second row of range boxes (max range 40) or we need a special kind of seeker that acts like the SE 3 seekers -- same damage at all ranges without needing to set it in all the boxes and it just keeps running until it hits or gets shot down or combat ends. I'd favor the latter, actually. Drones are nice but far too expensive for mass use. Let's change missiles to be like drones that cannot move strategically.

[ 05 February 2002: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]

[PvK]

My Proportions mod works on this issue in a few ways:

1) Planetary cargo/deployment capacities increased.

2) Homeworld "cultural center" facilities, urban, and other facilities also add more cargo/deployment space.

3) Planetary weapon mounts increase both range and accuracy (as well as damage) because they have fixed target reference points.

4) New weapon platform components including non-computer command centers with higher levels of development give to-hit bonuses for better trained crews. Also, there are some large and expensive fire control center components which give nice to-hit bonuses (and similar can also be placed on large defensive bases).

5) Increased population damage-to-kill.

I'm waiting to see what's going to be in the first Gold patch to decide exactly what I'm going to do with ground troops, but in my current first Proportions upgrade I've increased troops damage resistance by about 100 times, both to reduce the ability to zap them from space, and to lengthen ground wars. I also upped planetary shield generators to go up to 25000 or so strength, because otherwise they don't compete at all with shield WP's.

In my more ambitious (and thus unfinished) Foundations mod, I also added various flavours of planetary PD components, which like those shown here are given a small size per weapon to increase their rate of fire and number per platform.

However, I'm thinking I don't like the "reduce the size" option nearly as much as the "increase the planet's capacity" approach, because it then becomes possible to transport planetary weapons easily, which especially makes no sense for the bunkers listed here, etc. Massive planetary defenses should (logically/realistically speaking) be relatively difficult to transplant from world to world.

So, I will probably be changing Foundations' smaller PD components to be a bit bigger, and just increasing capacities on planets more.

PvK