German 15cm sIG and the various units using it

[BigDuke66]

I'm talking about the weapon 078 in the German OOB.

1. It seems that the range is wrong, I found only 4700meters not 6400meters in every source I stumbled over.

2. The first SP version the "sIG I B"(ID 065 & ID 865) were also called "Sturmpanzer I Bison" maybe a thing to add, besides that it only carried 3 rounds of ammo in the vehicle as no more could be stored but more ammo was transported in a halftrack(Sd.Kfz. 10) by another 2 crew members. The crew on the sIG IB itself was 3 men large.

3. The "sIG33 PzII"(ID 979) was also called "Sturmpanzer II Bison".

4. The naming for the Grille and its variants irritates a bit, while the first version is called "sIG38(t) Grille"(ID 066), the 2nd version is called "sIG38/1 (t)"(ID 976) and the 3rd version "sIG38/2 (t)"(ID 968).
There are several names for them all, but I just what to point out that the gun is the sIG 33/1(1st version) or 33/2(2nd & 3rd version), the chassis is either the H(1st version) version or the K(2nd version) of the Panzerkampfwagen 38(t) or the Jagdpanzer 38(t)(3rd version but one source indicates in was the Bergepanzer 38 version) and the Sonderkraftfahrzeug numbers used are 138/1 for 1st & 2nd version and 138/2 for 3rd version.

The gun itself didn't change despite a name change to sIG33/1 and sIG33/2 but these had just modifications to the carriage to mount it on the appropriate chassis.

As there is no other 15cm sIG version used in the game I suggest to clear this a bit by using:
"sIG33 Grille H" for ID 066.
"sIG33 Grille K" for ID 976. Some use M here because the chassis version used was based on the PzKw 38 K but was designated as Geschützwagen M so M could also be used.
"sIG33 Hetzer" for ID 968.
Simply to point out that this is still the sIG33 but on different chassis so the player can expect the same weapon performance but a different unit performance.

5. Entry date for the second Grille version(ID 976) should be changed, production did start in November 43 with first vehicles ready in December 43, May 43 seem way too early.

6. The armor of the "SturmIG 33"(ID 978) seems a bit off, in a Panzer Tracts volume I found a diagram that shows the armor values, I have a pic attached if that is OK.

PS
Sturmpanzer IV comes later as that one really used a different version of the 15cm, instead of L/11,4 it was L/12 so maybe the performance was different despite using the same ammo as the L/11,4 version.

[BigDuke66]

OK now up to the Sturmpanzer IV Brummbär, a the unit 033 has a steel armor on the hull side of 4 were all others have 3, 3 seems correct unless the skirts should add something to the Steel armor too and not only to the HEAT armor.

If the info is correct the Sturmpanzer IV was produced in 4 series.
1st Series(60 tanks) had the possibility to mount an MG34 on the open gunner hatch.
2nd Series(60 tanks) used the Ausf. H chassis and removed that hatch so I assume the chance to mount an MG was also removed.
3rd Series(unknown amount) only had minor changes, the biggest being a periscope instead a view port for the driver and the lighter version of the gun.
4th Series(unknown amount) used the Ausf. J chassis and added a ball-mounted MG(you can see this here: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...6/SdKfz166.jpg).

I would suggest to add the AAMG to the early versions(ID 033 & 722) and remove the AAMG on the late versions(ID 871 & 872).
And if it can be confirmed that there was a version completely without MG than a mid version that covers series 2 & 3 should be added, but I guess with a database so full it will be a problem.

I'm not sure about the entry dates, the production started in April 43 but they did not seem to reach the front before June 43 so if that is used for the entry date I guess June/43 seems OK, just as July 44 does for the 4th series(late versions) that started production in June 44 and so surely reached the frontlines not before July.

BTW I guess lowering the Fire Control and Range Finder values to zero for the units used as artillery variants was done for a reason or?

PS I was still not able to find info whether or not the new 15cm L/12 had a different performance.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by BigDuke66

3. The "sIG33 PzII"(ID 979) was also called "Sturmpanzer II Bison".

OK, let me explain that only 15 letters, numbers and/or spaces are allowed and "Sturmpanzer II Bison" is 20 so that's why it's not named that way.

Originally Posted by BigDuke66

the unit 033 has a steel armor on the hull side of 4 were all others have 3

That's a typo that I thought I had fixed two years ago. It's marked as fixed in my notes so it looks like it didn't get saved.....$%it happens

Originally Posted by BigDuke66

BTW I guess lowering the Fire Control and Range Finder values to zero for the units used as artillery variants was done for a reason or?

Do you see any arty.....SP or regular, that uses RF and/or FC ???


All the rest is in my notes and I'll get around to looking at it in about 3 months

Don

[BigDuke66]

Originally Posted by DRG

OK, let me explain that only 15 letters, numbers and/or spaces are allowed and "Sturmpanzer II Bison" is 20 so that's why it's not named that way.

Maybe something for the additional unit info in the encyclopedia.

Originally Posted by DRG

Do you see any arty.....SP or regular, that uses RF and/or FC ???

No but does that mean they shouldn't use or they can't use it?
It's just that this is an assault gun that is simply "used" as artillery but looses it's ability to perform like the version used as assault gun when it comes to direct fire.



Some more thoughts on the 15cm:
The assault gun versions couldn't elevate the gun as far as the sp-artillery versions and I wonder if that could have shortened their range.
SturmIG 33 could only lift up to +25 degrees and the new 15cm on the Sturmpanzer IV lift up to +30 degrees, unfortunately I have no clue what angle was used to reach the max range.
At least the gunsight for the SturmIG 33 was graduated to 3900meters for Sprenggranate and the gunsight on the Sturmpanzer IV was graduated to 4300 for I.Gr.38.
While the range may have been shorter, at least the minimum range for indirect fire was I guess bigger without reaching a real high angel the targets must haven been shot with direct fire.

[DRG]

I have noted the "RF and/or FC " issue down for later review. I have very, very little time to devote to "game issues" during the summer.


Don

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by BigDuke66

2. The first SP version the "sIG I B"(ID 065 & ID 865) were also called "Sturmpanzer I Bison" maybe a thing to add, besides that it only carried 3 rounds of ammo in the vehicle as no more could be stored but more ammo was transported in a halftrack(Sd.Kfz. 10) by another 2 crew members. The crew on the sIG IB itself was 3 men large.
3. The "sIG33 PzII"(ID 979) was also called "Sturmpanzer II Bison".

Jentz doesn't confirm name Sturmpanzer for anything except Sturmpanzer IV (also called just "Sturmpanzer") and doesn't confirm a name Bison for these vehicles. Besides, they were not fit for "Sturm" due to weak armour.
Official name for the first vehicle was "15cm sIG auf PzKpfw I Ausf B" (or similar variations). I would suggest name "15cm sIG /Pz IB" or "sIG 33 /Pz IB".
It's true with 3 rounds, but the crew was 4 (OK).

Name "sIG33 PzII" is OK (although it would be better "sIG 33 Pz II" or "sIG.33 Pz.II" with spaces or points). Jentz in newer book calls it "15cm sIG.33B Sfl" however.

Originally Posted by BigDuke66

4. The naming for the Grille and its variants irritates a bit, while the first version is called "sIG38(t) Grille"(ID 066), the 2nd version is called "sIG38/1 (t)"(ID 976) and the 3rd version "sIG38/2 (t)"(ID 968).
...

As there is no other 15cm sIG version used in the game I suggest to clear this a bit by using:
"sIG33 Grille H" for ID 066.
"sIG33 Grille K" for ID 976. Some use M here because the chassis version used was based on the PzKw 38 K but was designated as Geschützwagen M so M could also be used.
"sIG33 Hetzer" for ID 968.
Simply to point out that this is still the sIG33 but on different chassis so the player can expect the same weapon performance but a different unit performance.

I agree, that it's worth to introduce name Grille. Jentz Panzer Tracts recognizes old (66) and new model (976) as "Gw 38 fur sIG33/1" and "Gw 38M fur sIG33/2" respectively, or just "Grille" and "Grille ausf K".

As for 968 sIG38/2 (t) - apparently only one experimantal vehicle was produced...

Originally Posted by BigDuke66

5. Entry date for the second Grille version(ID 976) should be changed, production did start in November 43 with first vehicles ready in December 43, May 43 seem way too early.

Right.

Regards
Michal

[DRG]

It's all on the list to review later in the year

Don

[BigDuke66]

Thanks.

As the names space is limited, what space can be used for the description entries in the encyclopedia?
I guess there would be space to list some other names like the official designations that are usually very long or the nicknames.

[PvtJoker]

Originally Posted by BigDuke66

Thanks.

As the names space is limited, what space can be used for the description entries in the encyclopedia?
I guess there would be space to list some other names like the official designations that are usually very long or the nicknames.

I though I could answer that: there is plenty of room for explanations in the encyclopedia. I have written pretty long stuff there and have yet to encounter the line limit. The weirdo formatting code requires that line length of the description file has to be limited to 53 characters + a special line break character which seems to * (i.e. asterisk). Here is an example from me (a desciption for the Italian M-15/42 tank):

The M-15/42 was a stop-gap design conceived after it*
became clear that P-26/40 "heavy" tank production*
could not be started in 1942 as originally envisaged*
by the Royal Army. More powerful gasoline engine was*
fitted along with a 47mm L40 true high velocity gun.*
Frontal armor was increased as much as possible*
without overloading the front chassis. New*
transmission was fitted to accommodate the more*
powerful engine, which also required enlarging the*
hull. Despite these improvements the M-15/42 was*
outdated when it entered service in winter 1943. At*
the same time a decision was made to complete most*
M.42 chassis as Semoventi. It arrived too late for*
the fighting in North Africa and no examples were*
stationed in Sicily. Ironically its only combat use*
by the Royal Army was against Germans in September*
1943. After the armistice the Germans used them for*
anti-partisan duties in the Balkans, and the army of*
the fascist Social Republic also employed many in*
similar roles in Italy.*

No, I didn't do the formatting manually.

In any case, there would be room for an even longer description. I just don't think Don has time for such minor tweaks which don't even affect the gameplay.

[DRG]

* makes it a stop and start a new line