Off-map artillery

[Pibwl]

I've made an analysis and several suggestions on off-map artillery ranges. As you know, they vary: now some of most common guns have a calculated, relatively lower range (eg. 202 of leFH18 and 25pdr), while some others enjoy a big handicap against them. In some cases, obsolete guns have bigger range, than better and newer ones in one country (say, leFH16 is a better choice now, than leFH18).

I've figured out, that a practical way of calculating off-map artillery range is 190 + range in km (it pretty much works in case of leFH18, sFH18, 25pdr), although it's a matter of choice, if a range should be made even up or down (I usually made it even up)

Germany:

Precise range values may vary in sources, but a number of kilometres is rather indisputable. I used among others Hogg's "Light and Medium Field Artillery" WW2 fact files. As for Russian guns, I used a Russian book "Artillery of SSSR in WW2".

33 7.5cm leFK 18 - 205, real 9.4 km = 200
36 7.62cm FK288(r) - 208, real 13.3 km = 203/4 (Russian M.39/M.42)
63 8.76cm FK280(e) - 202, real 12.2km = pretty OK (25pdr)
64 10.5cm K 331(f) - 202, real 12 km = OK (French Mle.13 - 12km by Hogg, some sources give 12.7km)
65 10.5cm leFH16 - 204, real 9+ km = 200
66 15cm sFH 13 - 172, real 8.6km - it could be off-map gun with 199, although it is used only by SP-gun

67 10.5cm M43 (i) - 208 ? I don't know what is this. If it is 320(i) (105/32 - newer of Italian 105's), then according to
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/10.4_cm_Feldkanone_M._15 - 13.6km, but Hogg gives 16.2km for Skoda Model 15.

69 10cm K18 - 214, real 19-21.1 km = no more, than 211
70 10cm leFH 30(t) - 206, real 16 km = OK
71 10.5cm leFH 18 - 202, real 10.6 (leFH18) to 12.3 km (leFH18M) = pretty OK
74 12cm sFH 396(r) - 202, real 11+ km = OK
79 15cm sFH 18 - 203, real 13.3 km = pretty OK
80 15cm sFH 443(r) - 208, real 12.4 km = 202/203 (Soviet #80 152mm obr M-10 has 202)
81 10.5 cm GebH 40 - 208, real 12.6 km = 203
102 11.4cm K 365(e) - 214, real 18.8 km = 209 (4.5in)
103 24 cm K 3 - 228, real 37.5km = OK
104 17cm K 18 - 220, real 28 km = 218

106 15cm sFH 18M - 209 ? I didn't find sFH18M. It is used eg. in Hummel, but according to Jentz, Hummel had sFH18/1 with 13.2km. There was also sFH 40, with range 15.6km. Anyway, 209 seems too big.

107 21cm Mrs 18 - 207, real 16+ = OK
110 15.5cm K 419(f) - 212 - I have no data (French GPFT)
111 15.2cm K 433(r) - 214, real 17.2 km = 207 (Soviet #104 152mm ML-20 has 207)
118 lg 21cm Mrs - 204, real 11.1km = 201 (Hogg's booklet)
134 21cm K 39/40 - 220, real 29+ = OK


Soviet

04 152mm M1910/30 - 207, real 17 km = OK
33 76.2mm obr 39 - 206, real 13.3 km = 203/4 (F-22USV) (I suggest "76mm obr.39 FG")
36 76mm obr 00/02 - 208, real 8.5km = 199 (correct name in Russian sources is just "76mm obr.02 FG". In all cases there should be "obr." with point)

37 76mm obr 02/30 - 208, real 13.4 km = 203/4
54 76mm L51 obr 36 - 207, real 13.6 km = 204 (F-22) (I suggest "76mm obr.36 FG")
59 107mm M1910/30 - 209, real 16.3 km = 206/7 (I suggest "107mm M10/30 FG")
60 76.2mm M1942 FG - 208, real 13.3 km = 203/4 (ZiS-3)
64 122mm obr 31/37 - 210, real 19.7 km = OK
71 105mm obr 37 IG - 207 ?? I couldn't find such gun, nor such caliber gun at all, in Russian sources.

72 160mm PM obr 43 - 70, real 5.1km = 102 (not off-map, but might be corrected). Name is wrong - PM meant "regimental mortar", while it was divisional mortar.

74 122mm obr 10/30 - 207, real 8.9km = 199 (I suggest "122mm M10/30 FH")
78, 79 - I don't count them - tank guns only

80 152mm obr M-10 - 202, real 12.4 km = 202/3 (I suggest "152mm M-10 FH" - "obr M-10" is incorrect, because M-10 was a system's name, while its military pattern was "obr.1938 howitzer")

102 152mm D-1 Gun - 202, real 12.4 km = 202/3 (should be "152mm D-1 FH")
103 203mm B-4 How - 208, real 16-18 km = OK
104 152mm ML-20 - 207, real 17.2 km = OK (I suggest "152mm ML-20 Gun")
105 122mm obr 38 - 202, real 11.8 km = OK (I suggest "122mm obr.38 FH", aka M-30)

More to follow

[Pibwl]

British

I use mostly Hogg's "Allied Artillery of World War Two"

32 75mm MkII FG - 203 ? I don't know this gun
33 75mm Mk.I FG - 201
36 18 Pounder FG - 200, real 10.1km = OK
63 25 Pounder GH - 202, real 12.2km = OK
71 105mm M2 FH - 207, real 11.1km = 201
76 7.2in Howitzer - 211, real 15.5km = 206
- only 7.2in Mark 6 (1944, on US carriage) had 17.9km = 208
100 60pdr MkII Gun - 204, real 15 km = 205
102 4.5in Field Gun - 214, real 18.8 km = 209
103 8in Mk.VIII How - 209, real 11.2km = 201/202 (Hogg's booklet)
104 155mm M2 FG - 220, real 23.2km = 213
110 8in M1 Gun - 222, real 30.7km = 221 pretty OK
111 6in 26cwt How - 201, real 10.4km (light shell) = pretty OK
136 4.5in Howitzer - 202, real 6.6 km! = 199 as minimum for
off-map?)
248 5.5in Field Gun - 213, real 16.5 km (light shell) = 207 only


USA:
32 75mm M1916 FG - 201 - Army manual gives maximum 13,300yds (quite strange for such small gun) = about OK

34 75mm M1897 FG - 203, real 12.7km for M1897A4 = OK

35 75mm M1917 FG - 201 - looks probable, though Army manual gives 13,300yds and Hogg 12.3km. http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/ARTILLERY3.htm#75K17 confirms 10.7km

71 105mm M2 FH - 207, real 11.1-11.4km = 201-202 (second value is from Hogg, manual gives 12,146 yds)

102 4.5in Field Gun - 214, manual super charge range =20,500yds = 18.7km = 209

103 8in Howitzer - 207, real 16.9km = OK
104 155mm Gun M2 - 220, real 23.2km = 213
107 8in M1 Gun - 222, real 30.7km = 221 OK
110 155mm M1918 FH - 202, real 11.5km = OK
111 155mm M1918 FG - 208, real up to 19.3km = 209 pretty OK
115 155mm M1 How - 205, real 14.6km? = OK
116 240mm M1 How - 213, real 23 km = OK

French:

33 75mm Mle 1897FG - 203, real 11.2km = 201/202
34 75mm Howitzer (from 1943) - 205 - doubtful range for 75mm (I don't know what is this gun supposed to be. If it's US M1 pack howitzer on M3A3 carriage, it had only 8.9 km)

63 25 Pounder GH - 202 = OK
67 155mm Gun GPF - 208 - according to US data, 19.3km = pretty OK
69 105mm mle 1913 - 202, real 12km = OK

Maybe there should be added newer 105mm L Mle.36, with 16km range (206), used from 1936/37 (159 pieces by 1939)?

70 105mm mle 1934B - 201, real 10.3km = pretty OK
71 105mm M2 FH - 207, real 11.1km = 201
102 4.5in Field Gun (Brit)- 214, real 18.8 km = 209
110 155mm mle 17 FH - 202, real 11.2km (Polish sources) = pretty OK
111 155mm Gun M1918 - 208 - same as #67 - pretty OK
206 194mm mle GPF - 200, real 18.3km = 208 (Hogg's booklet)

More to follow later.

[Pibwl]

Correction:

French 67 155mm Gun GPF and 111 155mm Gun M1918 should have 209 (as US M1918), not 208.

[DRG]

Unfortunately all my books are boxed ATM and probably will still be into early summer so I cannot compare your Hogg data to mine.

There could very well be cases where distance quoted in yards was directly applied to the range of a gun without converting to metric.

For the most part your "issues" are with gun range data that have been in place for years and aside from imperial - metric conversion errors could easily have come from sources that differ from yours. As I have stated many times..... data for something as "common" as a Tiger 1 still varies from source to source enough that , in game terms there would be a 1 point difference in speed if one source was used instead of another......... my point is we may , or may not be "wrong" in some cases and since we both relay on other peoples research all we can do is say " my source says this ". In our case we don't keep a record of every change made and the source used ( If I had to do that I can assure you there is no way the game would have gotten this far....) so while you may say that source X gives an equivalent of 212 range and we give it 210.....that's the way it goes sometimes with 60+ year old data

That said all this has been copied to the to-do list for review in the fall

Don

[cbo]

What are we comparing here?

In some cases, you refer to particular charges or particular shells, but what would be the type of shell/charge to use for comparison purposes?

Is it max. range regardless, is it max. range with the basic/most common HE shell fired at full charge or......?

Needless to say, figures vary considerably depending on those factors.

[Pibwl]

From what I've figured, a max range is taken. These values in most sources are similar, +/- 0.5km. In most cases we obtain lower figures, than already are in the game, anyway.

I don't know, but it looks, like several people submitted these values long time ago, and they had different ideas how to represent off-map range, possibly just comparing "this gun has 204 - so this should be two points better". 207-208 would be 17-18 km, using this calculation (which seems to be correct), so it should be rather long powerful piece, not ordinary 76mm FG.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

From what I've figured, a max range is taken. These values in most sources are similar, +/- 0.5km. In most cases we obtain lower figures, than already are in the game, anyway.

I don't know, but it looks, like several people submitted these values long time ago, and they had different ideas how to represent off-map range, possibly just comparing "this gun has 204 - so this should be two points better". 207-208 would be 17-18 km, using this calculation (which seems to be correct), so it should be rather long powerful piece, not ordinary 76mm FG.

Could be. Back in the dark ages of the INTERNET when we started this project information was scarce and only wizards had access to books that had not been written yet so there could very well be ranges entered that were calculated as you describe.

Any gun that can only fire under 10,000 m (under 200 in game terms ) should NOT be off map arty so any like that will get very close scrutiny and even 200 is right on the line and "technically" should not be included as off map arty.

And while I see you are including every gun even if it's "OK" by your data it only makes wading through the data slower than if the good ones were on a separte list ( or not included at all ) and the "problem" ones were kept isolated becasue the very first thing I'm going to do when I sit down to start looking at this is delete all the ones marked "OK"...... so not including the "good" ones will save us both some time



Don

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by DRG

And while I see you are including every gun even if it's "OK" by your data it only makes wading through the data slower than if the good ones were on a separte list ( or not included at all ) and the "problem" ones were kept isolated becasue the very first thing I'm going to do when I sit down to start looking at this is delete all the ones marked "OK"...... so not including the "good" ones will save us both some time

As you wish. Although I did it for three main reasons: 1) I wanted to indicate, that I didn't forget to check such gun; 2) I wanted to put the figures, so you can verify; 3) sometimes I'm not sure if it should be made even up or down.

One correction as for sources: "Light and Medium Field Artillery" WW2 Fact Files is by Chamberlain/Gardner, not Hogg, as I wrote.

As for German #65 10.5cm leFH16, I've found, that these authors wrote 11km, but other sources, including Engelmann (German), credit it with no more, than 9+ only. So 200 is justified, as I've written (now it has 204)

As for 10.5cm leFH 18 - it has 202, and I've written "pretty OK", but I'm afraid it is too much. Only leFH 18M and leFH 18/40 models introduced 12.3 km range, but I didn't find precise info, when they appeared. The photos of these guns (with a muzzle brake) come mostly from 1941 onwards (if they are dated). Basic model leFH18 had only 10.6 km range, and it should be 201 - the difference might be important against US 105mm M2 FH or 75mm Mle 1897 with 11.1-11.4km or 25pdr with 12.2km.

Michal

[Pibwl]

Japan

Ranges according to Taki's page http://www3.plala.or.jp/takihome/artillery.htm, in case of 75-105mm guns Fact Files give similar values

36 75mm Type 38 FH (improved) - 208, real 11.5km = 202 (11.9 in Fact Files)
45 75mm Type 90 FG - 208, real 13.9km = 204 (according to Fact Files even 14.9km, but Japanese sources might be better)
71 105mm Type91 FH - 207, real 10.8km = 201
72 105mm Type92 FG - 214, real 18.2km = 208

79 150mm Type96 FH - 209, real 11.9km = 202
80 150mm Type38 FH - 208, real 5.9km = shouldn't be off-map...?
103 140mm Type 3 - 210 - ? if it's naval gun, pretty correct (used in coastal emplacement in the game)
104 150mm Type89 FG - 214, real 18.1km = 208

Poland

I use mainly Polish book by A. Konstankiewicz, 2003, basing partly on manuals. Part of guns are British or French.

33 75mm vz.97 FG - 203, real 11.4km = 201/202 (sources for French Mle 1897 usually give 11.1km). Correct name is "wz.97"

63 25 Pounder GH - 202 OK

64 75mm vz.02 FG - 202, real 11km = 201. Correct name is "wz.02/26" or "02/26 FG" - this is not the Russian 76.2mm gun wz.02 (obr.1902), which had a lower range, but its 75mm modification.

67 105mm wz.13 - 202, real 12.5km (Polish data), 12km (Chamberlain) = 202/3 - it was French Mle 1913 (I suggest name "wz.13 FG")

68 105mm wz.29 - 206, real 15.5km = OK (I suggest name wz.29 FG)

70 100mm Skoda FH - 200, real 10 km = OK (I suggest official designation "wz.14/19" or "14/19 FH")

71 105mm M2 FH - 207, real 11.1km = 201 (US gun)

73 105mm Canet - 200, real 9.5km = OK (coastal gun only in the game, in fact should be 100mm Canet - http://archive.is/hdZK ).
Name of unit 237 "105mm A Nadbrze" should be corrected as well.
By the way, such abbreviation of Polish name "Artyleria Nadbrzeżna" doesn't make much sense - it's like: "105mm Coas A", hard to understand even by the Polish. If you want to keep it, better would be: "A.Nadbrz."

74 152mm wz.30 FH - 208, real 22km or more = 212 (should be named Gun - it was coastal arty. Same remark as for #236 unit's name)

76 7.2in Howitzer - 211, real 15.5km = 206 (British)
96 120mm wz.1878 - 204, real 12.4km = 202/203 (better name is 120mm wz.78/31 or 120mm 78/09/31 - full designation was wz.1878/09/31)

102 4.5in Field Gun - 214, real 18.8 km = 209 (British)

103 8in Howitzer - 209, real 11.2km = 201 (British)

104 155mm M2 FG - 220, real 23.2km = 213 (US)

106 220 mm wz.32 - 205, real 13.5km = 204 (I suggest name "220mm wz.32 Mrt")

110 155mm Schneider - 202, real 11.2km = pretty OK (I suggest official designation wz.17 FH)

136 4.5in Howitzer - 202, real 6.6 km = not off-map?

234 194mm GPF Gun - 200, real 18.3km = 208 (Hogg's booklet, French gun)

248 5.5in Field Gun - 213, real 16.5 km (light shell) = 207

[Pibwl]

Romania

Info is based upon this Romanian page http://www.worldwar2.ro/arme/?language=ro&section=18 and Chamberlain/Gardner.

For guns already analysed in their "mother" oobs, I give a model in a first place.

31 75mm vz.28 FG - 165 - real 13.1km = 203!
(according to http://www.worldwar2.ro/arme/?article=305 and Chamberlain).
In fact vz.28 had long L/40 barrel and on this Romanian page it is quoted among field guns (it was regarded a mountain gun by Skoda, and it was a twin to to Yugoslavian 76mm vz.28).
The only unit that uses it is 134 mountain gun, from 5/44 only - I don't know why.
It seems, that it should be Artillery class, used maybe from some mid-30s (no precise info), and icon should have long barrel, eg. 2112

33 75mm vz.15 FG - 140 - it's on-map, though, but according to http://www.worldwar2.ro/arme/?article=323 its range was 8250 m = 165
(BTW: unit 395 76mm Mtn Gun should have icon 2109, like unit 133)

35 75mm Krupp FG - 200 - likely OK (model 1907/12, data unknown)
(BTW: unit 392 should have single-tail icon 2122, like unit 145 with the same gun)

36 76mm M1936 FH - 207 - Soviet F-22 M.36 = 204 (13.6 km)
37 75mm M1897 FG - 203 - French 75 = 201/202 (11+km)
(BTW: icon of units 143 and 394 should be longer-barrel 2112, like in the French oob)

39 76mm ZIS-3 FH - 208 - Soviet Zis-3 M.42 = 204 (13.3 km)
43 76mm Putilov FG - 200 - pretty OK (Russian M.02 gun)
(BTW: units 144 and 393 should have icon 2111 - unit 144 now uses 2122, but it should differentiate from 75mm Krupp using 2122 as well)

63 105mm vz.40/43 - 213 - real 11 km = 201 (http://www.worldwar2.ro/arme/?article=801)

64 100mm vz.16 FH - 202 - old Skoda mountain howitzer - according to http://www.worldwar2.ro/arme/?article=327 only 7.7km

65 105mm leFH 16 - 203 - German leFH-16 = 200 (9+ km)

66 105mm Krupp FH - 200. According to a quoted page, apart from md.1916, which is probably leFH16, only two models of Krupp 105 mm were used: md. 1898/09 and md. 1912, both with lousy range of 6+ km, what should make them on-map. I don't know, why this old gun is used from 1943 only (units 176,177) - probably it should be from 1/30.

67 100mm vz.14 FH - 203 - Skoda = 200 (9.3km)

69 100mm vz.30 FH - 207 - real 16km = 206 (Skoda gun, no info on Romanian service in Chamberlain's book, but a quoted page lists vz.30, without details).
Newer Skoda md.34 also had 16 km - http://www.worldwar2.ro/arme/?article=313

70 122mm M10-30 FH - 207, real 8.9km = no more, than 200 (Russian sources). Name should be changed to M10/30. Romanian page http://www.worldwar2.ro/arme/?article=319 even gives 7.6km range..

71 105mm mle.36 FH - 213 - real 16km = 206 (http://www.worldwar2.ro/arme/?article=310 and Chamberlain).

74 105mm leFH 18 - 202 - OK
BTW: unit 140 should have icon 2125 like in German oob

75 105mm mle.13 FH - 203 - OK (French)

End of part I - there's too much. I also wrote some comments as for units, because I probably won't review Romania in detail.

Michal