The Red OOB T-55M

[Mustang]

72 points. Game-wise, that's barely the cost of a Sabot round. Why, why why would anyone ever buy another tank?

Red OOB insurgent band. 13 points per infantry unit with FN FAL. Great morale and able to kill at long range with decent accuracy. Why would anyone ever need another infantry unit?

The only way you could mess up is if you stacked 256 tanks in a hex and a single cluster bomb killed all of them.

Seriously, why buy any other units besides these two, besides possibly cheap mortars/FGs and ammo trucks?

[Mobhack]

And the book cost for any of the variants in that OOB is around a hundred points for the Target-55M.

The Red OOB has low experience and morale and so the units are marked down in cost over book.

The SLR is only available for specialist formations - insurgents and mercenaries. The Insurgents have a negative on the experience, but a boost in morale. Check those out in Mobhack.

Red is merely a place-holder OOB for scenario designers to make generic soviet equipped opponents from, and not a regular nation as such. Green is a similar one, as is the UN.

From the Game Guide Historical Design Notes section:

The RED OOB, prior to the break-up of the USSR is a sort of 'Balkan' OOB, using Soviet kit. After the break-up of the FUSSR, it becomes a generic stand in for those FUSSR states which do not have their own OOB, when playing against Russia or Turkey. Playing against Poland, it becomes Byelorussia, as it does against Ukraine. Playing against China, it represents an Eastern FUSSR state, with rather flatter terrain, and less chance of urban areas. To the rest, it remains a 'Balkan' OOB. The OOB also contains generic Soviet-backed insurgents, rebels, government forces, terrorists and more.

[Imp]

72 points. Game-wise, that's barely the cost of a Sabot round. Why, why why would anyone ever buy another tank?

For an easy game possibly, early 80s tanks from the main powers are probably around 300 - 350 points with higher experience. No need to buy the best one but some will be impenetrable from the front at least till very short range. They have far better fire control laser range finders giro etc probably better vision so if visibility is below 30 the T-55 is in trouble.
It was in huge trouble anyway unless the terrain allowed them to pop up 4 or 5 hexes away & swarm the opposition they would have been destroyed long before they became a real threat with comparative ease.

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by Mobhack

And the book cost for any of the variants in that OOB is around a hundred points for the Target-55M.

Drats.

The Red OOB has low experience and morale and so the units are marked down in cost over book.

The SLR is only available for specialist formations - insurgents and mercenaries. The Insurgents have a negative on the experience, but a boost in morale. Check those out in Mobhack.

In theory, with sufficient bullets in the air accuracy is not important.

Red is merely a place-holder OOB for scenario designers to make generic soviet equipped opponents from, and not a regular nation as such. Green is a similar one, as is the UN.

From the Game Guide Historical Design Notes section:

The RED OOB, prior to the break-up of the USSR is a sort of 'Balkan' OOB, using Soviet kit. After the break-up of the FUSSR, it becomes a generic stand in for those FUSSR states which do not have their own OOB, when playing against Russia or Turkey. Playing against Poland, it becomes Byelorussia, as it does against Ukraine. Playing against China, it represents an Eastern FUSSR state, with rather flatter terrain, and less chance of urban areas. To the rest, it remains a 'Balkan' OOB. The OOB also contains generic Soviet-backed insurgents, rebels, government forces, terrorists and more.

Interesting, I read that at some point but didn't recall it. I guess that there isn't enough room left on the country select screen to add more OOBs.

Also, sorry about originally posting in wrong forum.

For an easy game possibly, early 80s tanks from the main powers are probably around 300 - 350 points with higher experience. No need to buy the best one but some will be impenetrable from the front at least till very short range. They have far better fire control laser range finders giro etc probably better vision so if visibility is below 30 the T-55 is in trouble.
It was in huge trouble anyway unless the terrain allowed them to pop up 4 or 5 hexes away & swarm the opposition they would have been destroyed long before they became a real threat with comparative ease.

I guess that's a problem if the enemy is expecting it. But ironically against the 500 point heavy MBTs available later on, swarms become more effective. If you engage at 1000 meters and lose five tanks charging in, the last two can close for the kill.

It's like with infantry. An infantry company costs as much as an MBT, and technically, the MBT can defeat the infantry if it keeps retreating through overwatch positions. But if it moves, the MBT exposes its rear. So the price for both is reasonable.

Well, I can see arguments either way, I just thought that Target-55s were at least as cost effective as any other tank in most circumstances all considered, except maybe in open desert type maps.

[Mustang]

Well, maybe not at 1000 meters head on, but if you distract their opfire with a flanking maneuver and take them from behind that would do it.

But then I guess you would have to use tactics and it would defeat the purpose of being lazy.

[Imp]

I guess that's a problem if the enemy is expecting it. But ironically against the 500 point heavy MBTs available later on, swarms become more effective. If you engage at 1000 meters and lose five tanks charging in, the last two can close for the kill.

So based on what you just said they are well balanced cost wise then.
Andy stated at 70 morale they cost 100 points & you just said would lose 5 swarming a 500 point tank.
Of course if you were going to use the gamey tactic of swarming you would have bought loads of the cheapest armored cars you could plus perhaps some cheap fast APCs as cannon fodder. Armored cars are faster so get there quicker & so long as they can kill with a rear shot job done.
Of course swarming vs a human is way harder all he has to do is place a few cheap infantry to protect it.

Given the choice baring terrain where tanks shouldnt be as in tight spaces & short engagement ranges only if I wanted a challenge would I pick 60 T-55s vs 10 decent tanks & a few supporting infantry.
Your example by the way 1000m (20 hexes) thats at least 2 turns to cover the ground if the other tanks stop which would be logical given they are better off engaging at range or even start reversing. Thats at least 3 rounds of fire - opfire own turn opfire now possibly in range, I would expect far more than 5 smoking tanks at those ranges.

If your talking vs tanks I cant destroy from the front I would prefer to pay for something with decent fire control so when I launch my flanking move there is a reasonable chance of scoring a hit & success, possibly even doing so undetected if you do it right especially vs a low experience or fast moving side.

[Mustang]

Your example by the way 1000m (20 hexes) thats at least 2 turns to cover the ground if the other tanks stop which would be logical given they are better off engaging at range or even start reversing. Thats at least 3 rounds of fire - opfire own turn opfire now possibly in range, I would expect far more than 5 smoking tanks at those ranges.

They would absolutely have to go for elaborately planned flank/defilade shots. Seven (not five) tanks would have to work together in a pincer, with five on frontal charge suicide duty and the other two coming in afterwards from the flank. If the target is in a hull down position and only turret hits are possible, or if they have a series of covered smoked off overwatch positions, then my plan isn't going to work at all.

Actually I think T-55s are a waste of money even, Red can buy downgraded low morale BMPs for 30 points in MISC.

Of course swarming vs a human is way harder all he has to do is place a few cheap infantry to protect it.

And this would work too, but can be a pyrrhic strategy because then your tanks have to slow down.

Well, you're right, bad idea all around. I stick by the 13 point insurgent bands though. Satchels are fun to throw at least.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Mustang

72 points. Game-wise, that's barely the cost of a Sabot round. Why, why why would anyone ever buy another tank?

Red OOB insurgent band. 13 points per infantry unit with FN FAL. Great morale and able to kill at long range with decent accuracy. Why would anyone ever need another infantry unit?

I'ts not too much of a stretch to say that this isn't far from Saddam Hussein's general attitude before the 1st and 2nd Gulf war......

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by DRG

I'ts not too much of a stretch to say that this isn't far from Saddam Hussein's general attitude before the 1st and 2nd Gulf war......

Hey, the T-34 was a good tank.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Mustang

Hey, the T-34 was a good tank.

......and the tread topic is the Red OOB's T-55 so where does the T-34 fit in ?