Thugs/ SC by path in CBM?

[legowarrior]

I'm curious, since Thugs and SCs are awesome to use during the end game, what are the best summonable Thugs and SCs by path in CBM?

So, what I'm looking for is a run down of what is available, both to all nations and specific nations.


Death has
Bane
Bane Lords
Ghost Generals (Yomi/Shinuyama/Jomon)

Water
Sea King
Elemental Queen


Earth
Troll King
Elemental King


Earth/Air
Dai Tengu (Yomi/Shinuyama/Jomon) not an SC, but with his army, a great raider.


Earth/Death
Hidden in the Sand gets you a few tough warriors


Water/Death
Hidden in the Snow gets you a similar group of tough warriors





I'm hoping to make a complete list for myself, and any help or thoughts would be appreciated.

[Mightypeon]

Death has Banes (budget thug), Bane Lords (better than bane thug), Shade Mages (mind hunt protector/semi thug), Demilichs (dont underestimate immortal), Wraith Lords (really good in goon game mods), Tarts.

Water only has Sea Trolls and Queens in itself. Depending on the mod, it adds Great Krakens (very usefull in Goon mods), Wendigos (W/D) and Grendelkin (W/E). Both are valid SC choices.

Earth also has Cyclops, and, if you have GoR, Gargoyles and Crushers. Mechanical thugs are good raiders but easily countered in certain setups.

Fire has Zmey and Ember Lords. Zmeys are awesome, buy a crapton of them.

Nature is varied, it has sleepers (somewhere between a bane and a bane lord with some quirks), Faerie Queens (not really an SC, but can be very competent in anti raider roles, Gift of reasoned Tarrasques, Treants, and Tree Lords, as well as Ettins (with E).

Air has Shishis, Aesiers (Aesiers can often get Cloud Trapeze + Rain of Stones ability), the air queens and a bunch of ways to fry stuff that did not invest in lightning resistance.

S has everything with Wish. Ether Gate is a waste of S gems, dont cast it.
Golems however can be quite usefull.

[rdonj]

Ether Gate is a waste of gems most of the time, but I would still rather cast ether gate than summon golems. The caster is very powerful as a thug and as a mage. I would still prefer to use my s gems for other things though in a real game.

[Zywack]

In CBM, my favorite budget thugs for Jomon are actually the Ujigami and the Kenzoku and not the Ghost General (though the ghost general is still awesome). Reasoning is:
- Lower or equal conjuration to summon, generally equal gem price, and all three are Etheral out of the box.
- Much easier to summon: They are 1S1E and 1E1S respectively. Much easier to get than 2D for Jomon.
- Both are Blessed unlike the Ghost General.
- The Ujigami has a Priest level so it can bless itself and it's Kenzoku partner (I usually pair them). It also has Standard: Less useful for raiding but it's there.
- The Kenzoku has Awe on top of everything.
- Neither are undeads, so fewer easy counters.

Of course, you could add a ghost general to that pair to have full Etheral + Awe + Fear, but a trio of cheap thugs isn't that cheap anymore

[rdonj]

Adding a ghost general would also mean that your other thugs are subject to a cold aura, which will either increase their price or add an extra avenue of vulnerability, so...

[Soyweiser]

Ether gate has one niche use, the moon blades kill magic beings. Against massed Kailasa summons, cast ether gate.

[TigerBlood]

Most blood commander summons have some thugging potential, the higher levels summons can all fill some niche roles well enough to be considered better than standard thugs. You can't count on receiving specific uniques though.

Vampires are good anti-raiders and have otherwise decent utility.

[Shardphoenix]

Mightypeon, topic specifically states CBM.
So, in CBM we have (non-national):
Death - Bane, Bane Lord, Wraith Lord and all the Tartarians you want.
Death+Blood - Vampire Lords. Tough, undead and immortal. What`s not to like?
Death+Water - Hidden in Snow, Wendigo
Water: Sea King, Water Queens, Ancient Krakens. Krakens also come with random paths, so diversity!
Water+Earth - Grendelkin. Very tough, buth with no magic paths and somewhat inferior mobility
Earth - Granite Cyclops and Earth Kings. And mechanical giants can be devastating against some opponents.
Earth+blood - corrupted Earth King. Only one, a good one.
Blood - Heliophagi, Demon Lords.
Blood+fire - archdevlis
Blood+water - ice devils (they are like poor man`s archdevils)
Blood+nature - I don`t know... GoR-ed ettins from Improved crossbreeding, maybe?
Blood+Air - nothing, but you can GoR a storm demon. Those are potent thugs.
Air - Shishis (great raiders), Great Eagles (more of counter-raiders), Asynjas(stealthy titan-sized SC chassis who can cloud trapeze). Also Air Queens, if you need them.
Nature - Sleepers, Tarrasques (strong out of box, but bad mobility), Treants (VERY strong in forests, esp. in rooted form, weaker outside).
Nature+Earth - Wild Ettins good resistances and can use twh-handed weapon+shield, but only one misc. slot).
Fire - Zmey-Zmey-Zmey. Also Emberlords. Oh, and Fire Kings.
Fire+Death - King of Banefires.
Astral - err.. Wat? Well, it has Wish. And ton of anti-thug spells.

[legowarrior]

Thanks Ladies and Gentlemen. That really helps. What about national summons?

[Zywack]

I got a question regarding that list, actually. I agree on that list, but there's one I like to use (against AIs, mind) that I've never seen mentionned in any thugging topic: the Roc. The Shishi is mentionned extremely often, but the Roc never is and I'm not sure what I'm missing.

It has the same conjuration level as the Shishi, the same magic requirements and same gem cost (half the cost, but you have 2 shishi per cast so equal beside 1 mage turn). It also has 2 to 3 in Air magic, an innate Fear built in, it flies and it has a stupidly high map movement (5) alongside some immunities and resistances. Since it flies so fast and can also Cloud Trapeze, I find it excels at raiding and being able to return alive afterward. Plus, they can also be used as mobile castle destroyer where needed due to their insane Siege bonus (especially if equipped with a Wall Shaker).

I realize that the Shishi has bonuses against magic beings, markedly higher protection and more is effective on mage-time, but while I do like the Shishi, overall I'm finding the Roc more useful overall. Since I keep hearing about Shishi everywhere but never about the Roc, I assume I'm missing something of importance about the Shishi...


Edit: Regarding national summons, I can't say I played the right nations for that yet beside Jomon (which is already listed) so I won't give my input on that. However, I did find the Eriu recruitable commanders to be absolutely amazing thugs. Incredibly inexpensive and extremely effective with a minimal amount of gear. Mind, I did play them with a 9 Earth bless and I always paired two together, but the amount of damage they can do is mind-blowing considering the investment. The Thuata commanders are probably reserved as thunder strikers, but one with 2 Earth and well-geared can be used to crush extremely heavy opposition. The only flaw I saw was the very low max HP: a major flaw to be sure, but... They are definitively worth checking out in my opinion.