Early HEAT for Soviet tanks...

[Pibwl]

Sorry for messing up with details, but I've just found a big article on Soviet tank guns 1945-1965 in Tekhnika i Vooruzhenie 9/2008 - quite professional, with detailed information on early postwar guns and their ammunition, including cross-sections of rounds.

According to it, 122mm D-25 gun of IS-2/ 3/ 4/ ISU-122/ T-10(early), used no HEAT rounds at all. It used only BR-471 AP and BR-471B APBC rounds - both penetrating 164-165mm@100m. There was no other AP ammo developed after the war for them either. I haven't found info on HEAT rounds for this gun (nor its field ancestor A-19) also in other sources, including Russian Wikipedia, which describes other ammunition types in detail
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/122-%D0...28%D0%90-19%29

The first 122mm HEAT tank round mentioned in the article was BK9 developed for M-62T2 gun (T-10 tank) in 1964 (200mm against inclined armour). There is no information if it could be used with D-25 gun, but M-62 had bigger cases and its basic AP round was BR-472, not 471. By that time, D-25-armed tanks would be obsolete anyway. In 1969 also BM11 "sabot" ammo was developed.

BTW: the article also gives regulation ammo loads - IS-2, IS-3: 17 HE/11 AP, T-10: 15 HE/15 AP, T-10M: 15 HE, 9 HEAT, 6 sabot (there are also similar data for T-34, 44, 54, 55, 62).


It also appears, that 85mm ZiS S-53 gun of T-34/85 tank possibly didn't use HEAT rounds. There are mentioned only BR-365 (APBC, 119mm@100m), BR-365K (AP, 126mm@100m), BR-367 (APCBC), APCR BR-365P (167mm@100m), APCR BR-367P (with ballistic cap). "367" family was post-war - probably 1949, with no specifications given there, but according to page on D-44 gun http://vadimvswar.narod.ru/ALL_OUT/T...O/SuPTO034.htm penetration of BR-367P was 210@500m (a penetration of BR-365P is given there 180@100m, but a difference might come from a bit longer barrel in D-44 - L/55 vs L/51).

Only in the Web I've found, that D-44 gun also used HEAT rounds BK-367 and later spinless BK-2. "367" suggest postwar round, while, according to some forum, BK-2 was accepted in 1969. It's strange, that they are never mentioned in connection with T-34/85, including in a quoted article... It was however possible to use them (though I don't know, if it could be accomplished without eg. modification of sights?...)

So, I think, that we should in the future remove HEAT from tanks with 122 mm D-25 - and at least from early postwar T-34/85 in countries, which use Heat for them. In later T-34s we could keep it - though D-48 gun in #606 T-34/85 in Russian OOB is definitely too strong - D-48 used different and not exchangeable ammunition.

Regards
Michal

[Marcello]

There was a BK-2M - penetration 300mm RHA IIRC - which was probablymeant for both D-44 guns and T-34/85s. The iraqis had some of them, so it got around. I imagine ballistc performace would have been similar to standard HE and it is not like T-34 needed a software upgrade to fire a new round.

[DRG]

I will take this under consideration but if you are going to tell me ...

.......D-48 gun in #606 T-34/85 in Russian OOB is definitely too strong - D-48 used different and not exchangeable ammunition....

.....then best be prepared to provide me with hard info to support that contention.


Don

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by DRG

I will take this under consideration but if you are going to tell me ...

.....then best be prepared to provide me with hard info to support that contention.

Don

At the moment I have only soft info in Russian
On the quoted pages, clearly copied from some book http://vadimvswar.narod.ru/ALL_OUT/T...O/SuPTO033.htm and http://vadimvswar.narod.ru/ALL_OUT/T...O/SuPTO034.htm there is enumerated ammunition for D-44: БP (BR) are AP rounds, БK (BK) - HEAT, all of "365" and "367" series plus BK-2 Heat.

On the following page http://vadimvswar.narod.ru/ALL_OUT/T...O/SuPTO035.htm there is ammo for D-48 - they are different rounds of "372" series. Moreover, under table 18 there is a remark: "For shooting of D-48 it is forbidden to use ammunition for D-44, KS-1, 52-K, 85mm tank and SP guns".

D-48 used apparently bigger cases, with 2.44 - 5.43 kg of powder, while D-44's had 1.5 - 2.6 kg of powder. But not only cartridges' numbers (UBR (YБP)), but also rounds' numbers (BR) differ.

(There were published lots of interesting books in Russian in past 20 year - seems, that they have to compensate for communist secret times. Moreover, those, who read them, are eager to spread them in the web... )

Regards
Michal

[Suhiir]

Using different powder charges, thus different length shell cases, for the same caliber gun wasn't exactly rare during WW II.
I seem to recall some German anti-tank gun(s) using a longer shell then the same caliber weapon used in tanks.

[Marcello]

As far as I have read the D-48 was an attempt at producing a lighter/better antitank gun than the BS-3 100mm. It uses a cartridge derived from that of the BS-3 ammunition but with an 85mm projectile. Higher MV than ordinary 85mm but lighter gun than a full 100mm weapon. Neat solution, as long as kinetic rounds were still the mainstay, as it was at the time it was developed.
Obviously ammunition would not be interchageable with standard 85mm, nor used on normal T-34s.

[Marcello]

Giving a look at the russian OOB, I see the problem. Probably to save the scarce weapons slots T-34s have been armed with antitank guns. Works ok with the D-44,not so great with the D-48.The only solution of sort without adding an additional weapon would be giving the D-44 BK-2/M HEAT values, issue HEAT only later (say late 60's onwards) to give it improved firepower.

Admittedly there is not a great deal online on the D-48, and what little there is is probably based on the same Jane's reference. I could try to give a look at the ordnace databases to see if I can get a look at D-48 ammo, but it is a bit elusive.

[Pibwl]

By the way, according to table 16 and text on pages above, D-48 was commissioned in 1953, but first 28 guns were produced only in 1954 - we have it available from 1/53 (#582 Russian OOB).

As for unit #802 85mm SD-48 AT - there's no sign, that such variant was produced. On the page http://vadimvswar.narod.ru/ALL_OUT/T...O/SuPTO035.htm there is only a short information, that a construction of prototype started in 1956 and "the author hasn't found data on SD-48 tests" - and that's all on this gun there (it shows on the first page, that it's a book "Otechestvennaya protivotankovaya artilleria" - "Homeland's AT artillery" by Aleksandr Shirokorad). Russian Wikipedia explicitly says, that SD-48 wasn't commissioned http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/85-%D0%...0%B0_%D0%94-48

It could be replaced eg. with night fighting variant D-48N (small party of 100 guns made in 1957) or more popular D-44N (from around same time).

Speaking of Soviet artillery: weapon #79 ZiS-2 has sabot range 20 (penetration 15), while table 41 here http://vadimvswar.narod.ru/ALL_OUT/T...O/SuPTO019.htm indicates, that BR-271N (Б�*-271Н) still could pierce 125mm at 1500 m.

Regards
Michal

[Pibwl]

One more thing: according to a quoted Russian article, the first Heat round for 100 mm D-10T gun - spinless 3BK5 / 3BK5M (according to Bronekllektsya, 390mm penetration) was introduced only in 1961. Also in Tekhnika i Vooruzhenie 10/2008 monograph on T-54 there is ammo for T-54A quoted: 20 HE, 14 AP, and Heat is mentioned only from 1961.

To make it complete, a Bronekollektsya monograph of T-55 claims, that in 1967 there appeared first sabot round 3BM10 (up to 290mm penetration - at 2km?), then only in 1980s: HEAT 3BK17M and sabot 3BM25.

Regards
Michal

[Marcello]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

One more thing: according to a quoted Russian article, the first Heat round for 100 mm D-10T gun - spinless 3BK5 / 3BK5M (according to Bronekllektsya, 390mm penetration) was introduced only in 1961. Also in Tekhnika i Vooruzhenie 10/2008 monograph on T-54 there is ammo for T-54A quoted: 20 HE, 14 AP, and Heat is mentioned only from 1961.

To make it complete, a Bronekollektsya monograph of T-55 claims, that in 1967 there appeared first sabot round 3BM10 (up to 290mm penetration - at 2km?), then only in 1980s: HEAT 3BK17M and sabot 3BM25.

Regards
Michal

From what I recall from discussions on tanknet BK-5 - BK-5M had rather different performance, it was something like 280mm - 380mm (BK-5M incorporated a wave shaper). BK-5 was also available earlier, around 1958 or so.

Some combat load that I collected:
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showt...ht=combat+load