Question about Corps Expéditionnaire Français en Extrême-Orient, French Indochina.

[Palle]

Looking at the French OOB, the earliest planes issued with napalm is the F4U-7 Corsair from June 1953.

However, it is very well documented that the largest air strike of the entire French Indochina at Vien Yen, on the 16th of January 1951, directed by Jean de Lattre de Tassigny and using napalm on a large scale for the first time in that war, was a decisive factor in the high losses, breaking and complete rout of the Viet Minh 312th and (especially) 308th divisions.

This does not rhyme really, would you consider changing the date to 1 - 51? Or rather, issuing the Helldiver with Napalm?

I will try and look into which aircraft it actually was that carried the napalm, but it is proving elusive.

I have now looked, and it seems it was the Helldiver. I cannot find anything definite online, but Helldivers carried napalm in the Greek Civil War, and as it is both holiday and my uni library card is closed (I owe them too much money in fines) I can do little more now.

[mkr8683]

Comment ca va, Palle! I've been reading 'Street Without Joy,' and it seems that most of the strike aircraft used by CEFEO forces were Hellcats and Bearcats. If I remember correctly, Vinh Yen was one of the few battles fought using mobile forces against the Viet Minh in the open. Fall has this to say about that fight -

"All available fighter-bombers in Indochina and transport planes capable of dumping bomb canisters were marshaled into what became the most massive aerial bombardment of the Indochina War."

Were Hellcats and Bearcats not carrier-based fighters as well as the Corsair? I seem to recall that Corsairs were not used very much in 'La Guerre Sale.'

[scJazz]

22 Dec 50
Napalm is used for the first time in Vietnam against Viet Minh forces at Tien Yen.

1950: France uses napalm against the Viet Mihn at Tien Yen

Supporting link

All of the aircraft in question could have dropped it. I can't find anything that identifies which aircraft(s) did.

[Palle]

Fall was a great writer.

The war in Indochina was largely characterised by improvisations, JU-52 were often used as improvised bombers also, etc.. And it is typical of it that only when America started funding the war did the CEFEO get modern weapons. It is ironic that after the Communists winning the Civil War in China, and especially after they drove the UN forces back in Korea and channeled much of the captured equipment to the Viet Minh, the latter were often better equipped than the CEFEO.

scJAZZ, there is a typo involved there. Vien Yen and Tien Yen is the same place, but the battle raged from the 13th Jan 1951 to the 18th Jan 1951 (IIRC it was the 18th, but in reality it was over with the massacre on the 16th). Napalm was used before, but only late in 1950 and only in small quantities.

This is one battle where I do not envy the Viet Minh, going up against two entrenched Groupement Mobiles consisting of legionnairres with a third in reserve. Giap was good at guerrilla, in fact he was brilliant at it. But "normal" warfare he was far surpassed by the French and man for man, the core of the French troops were much better than even the Chu luc. And de Lattre de Tassigny was a special kind of soldier.

Anyway, yes Helldivers, Hellcats and Bearcats were carrier-based. The ones from Arromanches earned immortal fame for their courage and recklessness in support of Dien Bien Phu. Often flying at only a few meters height while strafing the Viets. The garission noted a lack of the same daredevil dedication from the airforce. But then again, carrier pilots were always a special breed.

Merry XMas BTW.

[scJazz]

Originally Posted by Palle

scJAZZ, there is a typo involved there. Vien Yen and Tien Yen is the same place, but the battle raged from the 13th Jan 1951 to the 18th Jan 1951 (IIRC it was the 18th, but in reality it was over with the massacre on the 16th). Napalm was used before, but only late in 1950 and only in small quantities.
Merry XMas BTW.

I don't know if it is a typo or one of the immortal transliterating Asian languages into roman alphabets things. But the repeated data shows 22/12/1950 as the first uses of napalm and nothing at all refutes that from what I found. However a napalm bomb is a bomb like any other bomb and every aircraft mentioned could have tossed one. I'd tend to the December '50 date for certainty. Every source I've seen repeatedly mentions that date for the FIRST use.

Merry xmas

[Palle]

What I mean is the Battle at Vien Yen/Tien Yen was not fought at that date, it was fought at the time I stated. Hence the info is not reliable.

That being said, a first date of 22/12 is not unrealistic, but the first use in mass, and with very measurable effects was at Vien Yen/Tien Yen. There were thousands of burned corpses in front of the French barbed wire.

In any case 12/50 or 1/51 matters not that much. What one wonders is that they waited that long.

[scJazz]

I do not know if it is the Google Sound Chamber or otherwise but from what I have read 12/50 seems to be the date that ANY reasonable aircraft should have had napalm available. Not 1953 which seems to be a reference to France getting the Corsairs and the Corsairs being napalm capable.

Edit: Hellcats, Bearcats, Helldivers also being able to drop the same napalm canisters.

[Palle]

That Sir, I suspect is true.

But only Andy or Don can tell. I have already created my own Helldiver with Napalm, available from Jan 1951 ;-)

[Suhiir]

For all intents and purposes napalm is just another bomb. Anything that can carry a bomb can carry it. That said it's obviously best used by low-level attack craft rather then traditional bombers.
It would be more a question of "When did they get napalm to drop?" then "When did they get Corsairs?"

I suspect they bought left-over US stuff then eventually made their own once they realized how useful it was in jungles.

[scJazz]

Originally Posted by Suhiir

For all intents and purposes napalm is just another bomb. Anything that can carry a bomb can carry it. That said it's obviously best used by low-level attack craft rather then traditional bombers.
It would be more a question of "When did they get napalm to drop?" then "When did they get Corsairs?"

I suspect they bought left-over US stuff then eventually made their own once they realized how useful it was in jungles.

Actually, they more or less got in theater leftovers from Korea. OMFG it has a prop. Give it to the French in exchange for wine!