Egyptian OOB v5.5

Pibwl · #1 June 9th, 2011, 08:15 PM

I've browsed through Egyptian OOB and I have some corrections or suggestions:

#001 PT-76 - according to Russian Bronekollektsya book on PT-76, Egypt received them only in 1966, what is generally confirmed by Steven Zaloga's Concord Tank Battles of Mid-East Wars (then, it would most likely be only PT-76B variant, produced since 1959, not PT-76). Would need a date change in formation 008.

#005 Vickers Mk.VIb - I don't know if armament of two Bren CMG is deliberate, but standard tanks were armed with 0.5in Vickers (not present in a file - somehow worse, than 0.5in Browning) and #73 Vickers CMG in a common armoured mantlet

#006 Vickers Mk.VIc - secondary weapon should be #72 7.9mm Besa CMG, not Vickers CMG

#007 M22 Locust - I have no info on Egyptian tanks, but I've read, that only few Locusts were fitted with LittleJohn adaptor - standard was #226 37mm M5 Gun (named M6 in this variant), with AP and HE ammo. I don't think, that such scarce tanks with Littlejohn went to Egypt, and their ammunition was sure not popular. A photo http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:M2...st-negba-2.jpg shows a captured tank without adaptor.

#11 Matilda Mk.II - size might be 4, comparing to Valentine (3)

#22, 23 T-54B - according to Zaloga, Egypt had T-54A, and only before 1973 they started to be fitted with (German) IR searchlights (on a photo). No mention there on T-54B in Egyhptian service. First T-54s were bought even before 1956 (probably few).

#23 T-54B - I suggest to change picture to 7502 (as #22 unit), since it's a photo of specific Egyptian variant, while 11120 is used by many countries and may be replaced with other photo of non-Egyptian tank in the future.

#28 T-62 - according to a table in Zaloga's New vanguard 158 on T-62, Egypt received them in 1971, not 1970.
On a well-known photo of a column of Egyptian T-62s withdrawing in 1973, they have no AAMGS.

#57 BTR-152K - undoubtedly basic Egyptian variant was open top BTR-152 (possibly in export variant BTR-152E1). I haven't find confirmation, if they used hardtop BTR-152K at all (it was produced from 1957 anyway). Better photo of hardtop is 29107.

#66 BTR-50PK - according to Russian Bronekollektsya on PT-76, Egypt received them only in 1966, not 60.

#69, 70 BMP-1 - they should have 9M14 Malyutka missiles (#146), not 9M17 and carry only 4 missiles.

#81 240mm Mortar - proper pic is 11171 (current is 160 mm mortar)

#88 PKM MMG Section should have pic 45377

#94 25 Pdr FG - icon should be 650

#96 122mm M38 FG - it's a detail, but better icon is 59 with shorter barrel.

#99 152mm D-1 FH - possibly better icon is 65 with shorter barrel

#110 B10 Recoilless - proper pic is 29215 or 29396

#114, 124 etc SA-342 Gazelle - size should be 2 IMO (it is smaller, than Mi-2 with size 3 and AH-64, with size 2(!)). Better icon for #116 is 964 (without pods)

#116 Mil Mi-6A - correct pic is 11177. Size could possibly be 5. I've found no info about armed Mi-6.

#143 Yakovlev 11 - better name is Yak-11 (or Yakovlev Yak-11).

#144 MiG-15bis - as a standard, MiG-15 didn't carry any rockets (there isn't known any special Egyptian modification, as in case of MiG-17). It could take two bombs 100 kg.

#145 MiG-17F - it could not carry 4 bombs (unless there was some special modification). It could however take two bombs 100 or even 250 kg.

#146 MiG-17PF - as a standard, MiG-17 didn't carry S-5 rocket pods (40 rockets is also improbable). It is known however, that the Egyptians modified MiG-17 to carry 8 x 76 mm rockets (probably of Western origin).

#147 MiG-19S - according to MiG-19 Farmer In Action, MiG-19S were delivered from 1958 (not 1961). It could take 2x 250 kg bombs.

#148 MiG-19SF - better name is just MiG-19S - Russian sources (and In Action book) don't recognize SF variant. First were available from 1958 as above. There should be only 4 shots for rockets 57mm (4x8 rockets).

#151, 152 - MiG-23BN - According to a Russian book "MiG-27", deliveries started only from mid-74. They should have FC=15 (laser RF etc)

151 - it could carry 4x32 57 mm rockets, so the weapons should be given 11, 11 and 10 shots (practical minimum was 2x32 and 2x16, with all weapons with 8 shots). Or a weapon should be changed to 8x57 mm S-5, from a Soviet oob, with 6,5,5 shots.

#153, 154 MiG-27 - Egypt didn't use them. They could be renamed to MiG-23BN (comments as above) - 4x500 kg bombs is OK (it could carry even 6). Picture 11143, FC=15.

#155 Su-7BMK - variant with 96 rockets (6 hardpoints) was produced from 1969 and they could be probably delivered to Egypt not sooner, than in 1972 batch. According to a Polish article on Su-7, all Egyptian Su-7 were withdrawn by 1979 after getting worn.

There should be created another Su-7BMK with 64 rockets (minus one weapon #186) - first delivered to Egypt in 4/67 (not 1/64).

#156 Su-7UM - it should be renamed Su-7BMK, and it could take 4 bombs 500 kg (without external tanks). Used from 4/67 until probably 1979 (see above). UM (correctly UMK) was a trainer variant with maximum bomb load 2x250 kg.

#157 Su-20 - It could additionally take two bombs 250 kg (in fact, a batch of Su-17 was delivered to Egypt in 1972, while similar more numerous Su-20 from 1973).

#158 Su-20 - I can't verify if Egypt received Kh-23 missiles before turning to Western equipment. USSR was reluctant to sell guided missiles to the Third World in the 1970s.

There could be created Su-20 with 128 rockets S-5 (4x32), used from 1973 (three weapons #186 4x57mm with 11, 11, 10 shots or weapons 8x57mm taken from the Russian oob).

(in case of changes, some prices would need tweaking)

#161, 162 L-29 Delfin, L-39 Albatros - they should have size 3 like in the Czech oob and like #163 L-59 Albatros

#252 Boyes Carrier - according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boyes_Anti-tank_Rifle correct spelling is Boys - for all weapons and countries.

#254 GM Otter Mk.I - I wonder, if it should have top armour 0, since it only had a very small opening upon a turret. It might have also Boys AT-rifle.

#258 BA-64 - size should definitely be 2 - it was very compact car. On the other hand, Humber and Otter in slots above and #259 Marm-Herr IVF were quite high and should have size 3 (I've made several comparison drawings of vehicles for game purpose, if anyone's interested)

#265 17 Pdr AT-Gun - better icon might be 60 due to long barrel.

#330,331 JSU-152 - correct name should be ISU-152

#345 GAZ Shmel - better name would be GAZ Shmel 2P26 (original designation of vehicle). They had no space for reloads - only 4 missiles.

#350 - BRDM-1 Falanga - according to this Russian page http://cris9.narod.ru/rva_2p32.htm there are no reports on their export. No other signs, that they were ever exported.

Apart from #351 BRDM 2-Malutka, Egypt might also have used 9P133 BRDM-2 Malyutka-P launchers with Malyutka-P missiles (eg. weapon 155 in Polish OOB).

#485 BRDM-1 - BRDM-1s were rarely armed with 12.7 mm DShk, what is confirmed by photos (it concerns all countries, I have no specific information on Egyptian ones). Zaloga wrote, that "some Soviet" BRDM-1s were armed this way. Most should be armed only with SGMT (precisely saying, AAMG variant was named SGMB).

#502 PKM MMG should have pic 45377

#562, 564 BM-21 Grad - they were used in the USSR from 1965, so in Egypt they could appear in some 1966. Better photo of a standard vehicle is 11033.

Proposed units:

- Humber LRC III - as #258 BA-64 but armed in 48 Bren and possibly 243 Boys AT-rifle, equipped with smoke mortar (similar Otter has 6 SD), size 2, available from 1/46 to some 1950s, speed 97 km/h (32?), armour hull front = 2, pic - ? (I can provide)

- OT-62 with Tarasnice recoilles gun - #56 from Czech oob, icon possibly 2237 (although it's green), used in 1973

- 130mm M-51 MRL - #163 from Czech oob, used in 1973 (weapon #201)

- BTR-152 - with open top, instead of (or beside) 057

Weapons:

#53 SGMT AAMG - real name for AAMG tank variant was SGMB (for all countries)

Marcello · #2 June 10th, 2011, 03:05 AM

Quote:

#155 Su-7BMK - variant with 96 rockets (6 hardpoints) was produced from 1969 and they could be probably delivered to Egypt not sooner, than in 1972 batch. According to a Polish article on Su-7, all Egyptian Su-7 were withdrawn by 1979 after getting worn.

#156 Su-7UM - it should be renamed Su-7BMK, and it could take 4 bombs 500 kg (without external tanks). Used from 4/67 until probably 1979 (see above). UM (correctly UMK) was a trainer variant with maximum bomb load 2x250 kg.

The Su-7s seldom left the base without at least a couple of drop tanks, the ventral ones usually. While I have read of at least one mission when bombs were carried on all six hardpoints it was a very short range mission (few minutes of flight) on an high priority target (an israeli HQ in 1973) and the pilots had at least one eye permanently glued to the fuel gauge. A typical CAS combat load would be well short of the theoretical maximum.

Pibwl · #3 June 10th, 2011, 03:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcello

The Su-7s seldom left the base without at least a couple of drop tanks, the ventral ones usually. While I have read of at least one mission when bombs were carried on all six hardpoints it was a very short range mission (few minutes of flight) on an high priority target (an israeli HQ in 1973) and the pilots had at least one eye permanently glued to the fuel gauge. A typical CAS combat load would be well short of the theoretical maximum.

That's why I wondered, if we have some policy on using maximum payload of aircraft. Most missions were with drop tanks, but some could use all armament. On the other hand, it's lousy to use such a big plane to deliver only 2x16 57 mm rockets (speaking of 4-hardpoint version, before 32-rocket pods were introduced), which are of limited efficiency (and none against armour).

Marcello · #4 June 10th, 2011, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pibwl

On the other hand, it's lousy to use such a big plane to deliver only 2x16 57 mm rockets (speaking of 4-hardpoint version, before 32-rocket pods were introduced), which are of limited efficiency (and none against armour).

Then again it is what was usually done.
The Su-7 was for all practical purpose an air to air machine adapted for the delivery of a bucket of instant sunshine. And like most of the soviet fighter/interceptor of that era air to air performance was emphasized at the expense of everything else in the design. As an earlier example of such philosophy the basic Mig-15 could carry only two 100 kg bombs, the Sabre could handle 1000 Ibs ones.The former however had an higher ceiling than the latter.
The priority in the Khrushchev was fighters, interceptors and bombers. This was highly sensensible in the context of the time but it meant that tactical strike units were equipped with hand me down planes (typically surplus Mig-17), an hand me down design like the Su-7 and even an hand me down weapon like the
57mm rocket (originally meant as an air to air weapon).
I prefer to use typical payloads that were actually used most of the time, instead of rare or theoretical ones.

Pibwl · #5 June 14th, 2011, 06:40 PM

For #006 Vickers Mk.VIc - correct picture would be p0631 from SP-I/SP-III

Pibwl · #6 June 15th, 2011, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcello

I prefer to use typical payloads that were actually used most of the time, instead of rare or theoretical ones.

Yes, but free fall bombs and unguided rockets aren't generally much effective in the game (especially S-5 rockets against armour), and planes are a margin, so I think, that we could equip early planes with maximum payloads to compensate low efficiency.

Michal

Pibwl · #7 July 1st, 2011, 07:29 PM

Pictures:
460 Scouts - proper pic is 7096 (.303 rifle)

461 Scouts - proper pic is 1099 (SAFN rifle)

Pibwl · #8 October 5th, 2011, 07:17 PM

I took to Soviet amphibs (it concerns all countries):

#239, 250 K-61 - according to Russian sources, speed was only 36 km/h (12, now: 18), and on water - 10 km/h. It can carry 40 soldiers or a gun or jeep (now: 150). I doubt, if they survived until 12/120, considering, that newer unit PTS-M (below) ends at 12/90. They weren't armoured at all and sides were thin, due to weight (strengthened with evident ribs).

#251 PTS-M - speed is only 42 km/h (14, now: 18) and on water - 11 km/h. They weren't armoured (as above).

DRG · #9 January 8th, 2012, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pibwl

-

- OT-62 with Tarasnice recoilles gun - #56 from Czech oob, icon possibly 2237 (although it's green), used in 1973

- 130mm M-51 MRL - #163 from Czech oob, used in 1973 (weapon #201)

"used in 1973"means what exactly ??? That they were only used in 1973 ?? If they were aquired in 1973 have are they still in use ?? If they were only used in Yom Kippur is 10/73 their end date ?

Don

Pibwl · #10 January 9th, 2012, 05:03 AM

If I had known, I'd have written...

There are photos of 130mm launcher and OT-62 from 1973 war in Concord's "Tank battles of the mid-East wars". I think it's safe and better than nothing, to assume +/- 5 years - though of course you might not agree. Considering, that the launcher was designed by 1956, and OT-62 in 1963, I guess, that they were bought even before 1967, but I have no proof. Maybe even before 1956, in case of 130mm launcher, since Egypt started to buy tanks from Czechoslovakia in 1953.

Regards
Michal