Modeling Polish 10th Motorized Brigade

[Brian61]

I ran into a bit of a problem trying to model the Polish 10th Motorized Brigade. There's little hard data on the actual makeup of the infantry component but if I try to use the 19 man squad infantry from the OOB, the medium trucks only carry 18. Only other option is using the dismounted cavalry, which may make some sense but the tiny 4 man squads are very fragile. For now I'm going to mobhack the medium trucks to 119 carry capacity but I wonder if the motorized infantry units wouldn't have looked alot more like this? Of course without the bicycles, which would give 12 or 13 man squad sizes depending on how you interpret the data.

If added in, the motorized infantry formations should I think be elite formations just as the cavalry. It might be easier/better to add them in without organic transport so that decision is left up to the user. Also it would be nice if the HMGs would be made available as singles or perhaps doubles rather than just triples, although that's getting a bit nitpicky

I'm open to suggestions if anyone has better data or ideas, thanks

Brian

PS: Had some time on my hands and dipped into the OOB editor, updated the polish oob with early medium trucks having 119 carry capacity, also added proposed motorized units and formations, fixed (I think) a few things the database check utility complained about (bad nation values). Result is attached in zip format.

[Brian61]

Had the wrong mg, changed it to the wz.30. Also, since there is some disagreement as to the number of LMGs, added two more units so that unit class could be used to select 2 or 4 LMGs per platoon. The units added are 800 thru 805, and formations added are 500 thru 502. Both ranges were blank in the stock OOB so shouldn't cause any problems.

With the lack of hard data, did a bit of number crunching on the LMGs. The standard rifle platoon has 1 LMG (1 per 60 men roughly). The cavalry platoon has 1 LMG (1 per 30 men roughly). The bicycle platoon (per Niehorster's data) has either 2 LMGs or 4 LMGs which would give either (again rough numbers) 1 per 30 men or 1 per 15 men; the first proportion 'sounds' more correct or at least in line with other units. The 10th motorized drew from both mounted rifle and lancer regiments further complicating the picture. It would seem reasonable that despite their ancestory the two motorized infantry regiments in the 10th would share a common structure and TOE.

Updated modified oob attached.

Brian

[Firestorm]

Originally Posted by Brian61

I wonder if the motorized infantry units wouldn't have looked alot more like this? Of course without the bicycles, which would give 12 or 13 man squad sizes depending on how you interpret the data.

There's a 6-man (I think) bicycle cavalry squad for the Polish OOB. I actually used it for the infantry in a motorized brigade during a Let's Play on another forum. The way I had my brigade set up, it came out to *exactly* 200 units. I'll see if I still have that ORBAT lying around somewhere.

A common joke on that forum is that my brigade must have stolen every bicycle in Poland.

[Brian61]

Since the time of the original post, the latest update (4.5) increased the carry capacity of Poland's medium trucks to allow the transport of the 19 man infantry squads. This simplifies the modeling task tremendously.

The original problem remains though, primary source details for the 10th Motorized (Calvary) Brigade are scarce and after 71 years, more are not likely to surface. Second hand information from various Polish sources have shed some light on bits and pieces, the number of LMGs (42) and ATRs (12) per squadron for example along with additional information about the makeup of the AAA platoons (1x 40mm + 2x AAMGs each) and the infantry component of the recon squadron (almost exactly as the dismounted cavalry in the current OOB with, of course, the addition of vehicles).

The detailed TOE at platoon level for the motorized calvary squadrons of the Polish motorized brigades however is non-existant. One is left with a puzzle of numbers, numbers which don't add up if you assume either rifle platoon or saber cavalry troop TOEs. Numerically the 16th Calvary regiment's bicycle company (4x 12-13 man squads) is the best fit out of the available primary source information. After nearly ten years of on-again-off-again amateur sleuthing in this matter I've pretty much given up hope of finding anything more substantial.

As the winSPWWII OOBs stand now, for scenario designs I've been using a modified dismounted calvary troop as the basis, changing three of the squads to rifle squads with BARs and one squad to an ATR team. The numbers are, of course, still too heavy, but it seems to work well enough to capture the flavor of the 10th Motorized.

I should note that I'm really interested only in modeling a slice of the 10th Brigade centered around one of the motorized cavalry squadrons as I have little interest in battles, campaigns, or scenarios with more than 50 to 75 units per side.

Thanks,
Brian

[TonyE]

There is a fairly good polish website on 1939 unit structures (regiment to squad level) here: http://wp39.struktury.net/index.html

The motorised squadron of an armoured recce battalion can be seen here, maybe it is the same as in motorised regiments?: http://wp39.struktury.net/10bk-dr-sz...trzelecki.html


Combine it with an online translator and you should be good to go.

[Brian61]

The new source gives quite different information on the motorized recon battalion than that which I recieved from a response to a query on http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/TOandEs/.

Rifle platoon (of the recce batallion):

1 off., 20 sold., 1 driver, 2 pist., 17 carb./rifle, 3 LMG, 1 3-t lorry (4x2) Polski-FIAT PF62 - 3 in the squadron

1 off., 19 sold., 4 drivers, 2 pist., 17 carb./rifle, 3 LMG, 4 vans (4x2) Polski-FIAT PF508/518 - 1 in the squadron

E.P.Nowak. Dywizjon rozpoznawczy 10 BKaw 1938-1939. (The Reconnaissance batallion of the 10th Cavalry Brigade in the 1938-1939). Source - one of a lot Polish discussion boards, just don't remember which one.

eppanzer

My primary source for information on the TOE for the 10th Motorized is Polish Army Motorized Brigade 1939. As far as I can find the closest Nafziger comes to touching on this subject is Organization of Polish Cavalry 1939. The Nafziger information isn't useless in this respect as it does serve to show the manpower breakdown of elements above the squadron level that are included in the total numbers.

Using Nafziger's information for a rough estimate of the manpower involved in the regiment outside of the line squadrons and Niehorster's information for the motorized regiments we have something like:

Motorized Regiment total (Niehorster): 974
HQ (Nafziger)                          -25
MG Squadron (Nafziger)                -168
AT Platoon (Nafziger)                  -36
Signals Platoon (Nafziger)             -52
Motorized Engineer Platoon*            -44
Motorcycle Recon Platoon*              -22
                                      ------
Remaining for 4 line squadrons:        627
*Pure guesswork for engineer/recon platoons

This leaves 156 men per line squadron.
Each line squadron is composed of a HQ section, three line platoons, and an MG platoon with 2 .wz30 HMGs.

The MG platoon from your source in the previous post serves to show the manpower requirements of a motorized MG platoon with 2 HMGs as 16 men.

For the HQ section, again using the wp39.struktury.net source gives the manpower requirements for the HQ as 11 men.

Subtracting out the MG and HQ elements from the earlier squadron manpower estimate leaves us 129 men to be split among three line platoons giving 43 men per platoon.

The motorized recon platoon given by wp39.struktury.net shows 30 men per line platoon.

The TOE group response shows 22 men per line platoon for the motorized recon platoon of the 10th motorized brigade.

When the Motorized Brigades were created, they were drawn from the Cavalry branch and thus can almost certainly trace their organizational lineage back to other Cavalry branch organizations. It is very unlikely they would have created an entirely new organization from scratch but rather would fit an existing, familiar, one to the new requirements.

There are only three Polish Cavalry organizations for which I have 'hard' data on:
1) The Saber Company which has 29 men per line platoon. Note that this is very close to the manpower requirements of the motorized recon platoon given by the wp39.struktury.net source.

2) The Rifle Company, a structure shared by both Cavalry and Infantry branches, has a requirement of 72 men per line platoon. Note that this organization uses the 19 man rifle squads.

3) The Bicycle Company, specifically of the 16th Cavalry Regiment, has a requirement of 53 men per line platoon. Note that this organization uses a more widely used (internationally) squad size of 12 men each.

The infuriating thing is, NONE of the possibilities are a match!

Unless I've made some huge error in calculation or just plain missed something, the actual line platoon TOE is somewhere between that of wp39.struktury.net's motorized recon platoon (30% understrength) and the line platoons of the 16th Cavalry Regiment's Bicycle Company (23% overstrength).

Anyhow, its at this point I've basically thrown up my hands and said the heck with it since I'm interested much more in capturing the feel of the 10th Motorized Brigade in scenarios/campaigns than I am in pure historical accuracy.

If I had to make a guess and put my money down, at this point, I'd have to bet on the use of the Bicycle Company (53 man) with one squad (12 men) down. Interestingly enough this would make the LMG numbers match up correctly. It also fits more in with the organizations of other nations which were being studied during the creation of the Motorized Brigades.

Thanks,
Brian

[TonyE]

I like a good mystery.

Another polish site gives this list for the Warzaw Motorised Cavalry Brigade:

Motorised Cavalry Regiment:
-4 Line Squadrons, each of three platoons, each of four sections with 6 men
-1 Recon Squadron with Bicycle plt, tankette plt and MC platoon
-1 HMG Squadron with four MG platoons, each with 4 MGs, and two mortar platoons each with 2 81mm mortars.
-Engineer platoon (four sections)
-AT-Platoon with four guns
-Signals Platoon
-Technical Platoon
-Administrative Platoon

From:
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordre_d...walerii_w_1939 (abit further than halfway down the page)

[Brian61]

Originally Posted by TonyE

Motorised Cavalry Regiment:
-4 Line Squadrons, each of three platoons, each of four sections with 6 men
-1 Recon Squadron with Bicycle plt, tankette plt and MC platoon
-1 HMG Squadron with four MG platoons, each with 4 MGs, and two mortar platoons each with 2 81mm mortars.
-Engineer platoon (four sections)
-AT-Platoon with four guns
-Signals Platoon
-Technical Platoon
-Administrative Platoon

From:
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordre_d...walerii_w_1939 (abit further than halfway down the page)

That leaves us with a difference of over 200 men and six tankettes between a wiki article with no references or citations and the published data by a WWII era historian with a PhD in military history (with references and primary source information available).

The article *might* be correct for the Warsaw Brigade at *some* point in early September 1939 as it wasn't fully formed and did take on additional attachments from other units. It cannot be considered accurate where the 10th Motorized Cavalry Brigade is concerned unless Dr. Niehorster's data is erroneous in multiple places.

It is cases like this where I find it hard to take wikipedia articles (regardless of nationality) seriously on the details.

Look at it this way for instance, while a Saber Company TOE makes perfect since for a recon unit since not only was recon one of the tasks of a Calvary Saber Company but it is also very similar to the skirmisher (light infantry) role played by the presumed ancestral organization.

When you are talking about a line company, you are no longer talking about light infantry or a skirmish role. You are looking at front line infantry that can take and hold objectives. A 40 something man platoon fits in this role (if a bit light), a 24 man platoon doesn't.

Brian

[TonyE]

Brian,

I just noticed that polish wikipedia gives an extremly detailed breakdown of the Warzaw Motorised Brigade.

According to the article a motorised squadron had:
4 officers and 116 men, divided into three platoons each of four squads.
Equipment: 10 pistols, 14 LMGs, 3 ATR, 93 rifles. 1 terrain car, 5 MCs with sidecars, 2 MCs, 11 transport trucks and one kitchen truck.

It list a fair number of sources so it should carry some weight on the issues, although i would not be surprised if there were some differences between the two motorised brigades.
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organiz...erno-Motorowej


T.

[DRG]

Sounds like a reasonable organization for a motorised formation and eliminates the unwieldy regular line infantry organization

40 man platoons, 10 men per section/squad.

Would that apply to all motorized units you think or just that one ?

Don