OOB24 ARVN Suggestions

[thatguy96]

Note these are just suggestions. I'm not at all familiar with 100% of the scenarios, so things like "could be removed" could easily be interpreted as reclassing units or simply using the X3 radio code. Similarly, not knowing the full extent of game engine mandated design decisions throughout the years, things I might suggest could easily be impossible for one reason or another. Like I said, these are only suggestions.

I also don't think that I somehow own this topic, so if people have conflicting sources, please share. I'm always on the lookout for more information.

I'm going to start this out by looking at some of the armor units. This of course will be a running project.

Unit 003: M5
Unit 007: M4A1

Would suggest setting the end date for these units to 12/54, or perhaps even earlier in 1954. None of the sources available to me suggests that either of these vehicles were passed to the fledgling South Vietnamese armor corps. The French precense following the defeat at Dien Bien Phu in May 1954 meant that their military presence rapidly fell off in country as well.

Unit 005: H39

Would suggest setting the end date for this to 12/49. I understand this already has an X3 radio code, which is good seeing as how few of these were likely sent from France and how its really unclear what their dispositions were. However, I think its not unreasonable to assume that with the arrival of the M24 in 1950 that these vehicles were quickly removed from service or at most pushed into Cambodia (where it is already in the OOB) or Laos (not in game).

Unit 009: M24
Unit 010: M24
Unit 178: M24 Pillbox

Unit 009 could probably have its end date set to 12/65. The first M41s arrived in March 1965 and did not immediately replace the M24s.

Unit 010's start date should then be changed to 1/66 and should be given an X3 radio code. The tanks that remained were deployed either in largely static roles (see the following paragraph about M24 pillboxes) or were part of a 12-tank VNAF unit, loosely affiliated with the VNAF base security forces, but directly attached to the VNAF Headquarters under Nguyen Cao Ky and described in multiple sources as effectively an anti-coup force.

When I read the sources on M24 pillboxes I imagined something like unit 178, a turret on a concrete base or something like that. Apparently, the reality better reflects the immobilized "dug-in" tank fortifications found in other OOBs. I'm not really familiar about the armor rating differences or conventions between turrets mounted on fort bases and immobilized tanks, but it should reflect the latter.



Unit 266: M8

Would suggest changing the start date to 1/50 and end date to 12/66. According to some of my sources, the French created a mixed French/Vietnamese unit during 1950 with M8 armored cars, prior to establishing the armor school in 1952. On the end date, unlike the M24s, I have seen little photographic evidence that the M8s survived very long after the reorganizations following the influx of M113s and M41s. The first V-100s appear in October 1965 as well, which were intended specifically to replace the M8. They are, however, still in the official documentation ~1966. The other option would be to create another M8 unit from 1/65 onward with an X3 radio code. The RF Mechanized Platoons already had their own seperate grouping of vehicles as well, so these would not have been passed to them. They began to replace those vehicles with V-100s themselves ~1967.

Unit 265: Panhard 178B

Would suggest either removing this unit or giving it an X3 radio code. Sources available to me suggest that there were very few of these vehicles operated by the South Vietnamese, and they were purely for training purposes. If X3 radio code is used, start date of 1/52 (when they were turned over to the armor school) and end date of 12/52 (the 3rd Blinde Regiment Vietnamien is created in 1953 with M8 armored cars, M3 halftracks, M3 scout cars and M8 HMCs).

Sources:

Primary Sources:

- Armor Organization for Counterinsurgency Operations in Vietnam. US Army Concept Team in Vietnam, 1966.

Secondary Sources:

- Dunstan, Simon. Armor of the Vietnam Wars. London, UK: Osprey Publishing, 2002
- Grandolini, Albert. Armor of the Vietnam War: (2) Asian Forces. Hong Kong: Concord Publications, 1998
- Green, Michael and Peter Sarson. Armor of the Vietnam War: (1) Allied Forces. Hong Kong: Concord Publications, 1996
- Lathrop, Richard and John McDonald. Cadillac Gage V-100 Commando 1960-71. Oxford, UK: Osprey Publishing, 2002
- Mesko, Jim. Armor in Vietnam: A Pictorial History. Carrollton, TX: Squadron/Signal Publications, 1982
- Rottman, Gordon and Donald Spaulding. Vietnam Armor in Action. Hong Kong: Concord Publications, 2002

Web Sources:

- http://picasaweb.google.com/zippo132/ARVNArmor#
- http://members.lycos.co.uk/Indochine.../afvs.html#top

[Imp]

Unit 010: M24

Unit 178: M24 Pillbox

Unit 009 could probably have its end date set to 12/65. The first M41s arrived in March 1965 and did not immediately replace the M24s.

Unit 010's start date should then be changed to 1/66 and should be given an X3 radio code. The tanks that remained were deployed either in largely static roles (see the following paragraph about M24 pillboxes) or were part of a 12-tank VNAF unit, loosely affiliated with the VNAF base security forces, but directly attached to the VNAF Headquarters under Nguyen Cao Ky and described in multiple sources as effectively an anti-coup force

.

Slightly seperate point using this as an example & X3 radio code.
If some one wants to set up a scenerio depicting the 12 tank unit tis easy enough to purchase the units even if not available. Start dates perhaps better to reflect availability ignoring odd rare formations or at least a note saying something & common start date.

[thatguy96]

I completely agree with that, but what I can't seem to determine is just how many other M24s were left and what their running condition was. The ones used in the static defense positions appear to have been able to be used in the mobile role, as there are images from Tet of them outside their little improvised bunkers. How long this lasted is unclear. Again, your point stands, but with the unit already in the OOB, it becomes easier from what I think I know to just X3 it out rather than delete it in case an existing scenario uses Unit 010 instead of 009.

[Imp]

it becomes easier from what I think I know to just X3 it out rather than delete it in case an existing scenario uses Unit 010 instead of 009

Good point.

[thatguy96]

Unit 012: M41A3
Unit 014: M48A3

I would suggest providing a vision 0 version of both units. While the M41 in US service featured as standard a visual light searchlight on top of the main gun, this appears to have no been common in Vietnam. Most of the images show it without this unit fitted (Seeing the gallery I linked in my initial post or any of the sources mentioned).

The version with vision 10 (Unit 012) should remain in the OOB, however, as while uncommon it did exist. There is a picture of one with the visual searchlight fitted on page 14 in Osprey's Vietnam Marines, 1965-1973. The tank troop TOE of 1966 only authorized 7 searchlights in total per troop, with 1 in the maintenance section and 2 in each of the 3 platoons. In my ARVN OOB, I created a separate tank type for the searchlight equipped units to recreate this.

In addition, a vision 15-20 version should also be included with a start date of 9/66. This represents the mounting of the Xenon searchlight found on the M48A3 to the M41A3 tank first in 9/66. The potential use of 15 rather than 20 would represent that these vehicles were not equipped with IR sights, and therefore only the commander with IR binoculars could make use of the night vision capability, degrading its overall effectiveness. It appears this was very rare, so an X1 radio code (or maybe even an X3 radio code) should be used. Really this is probably a debatable entry because its unclear how many conversions were made.


Similarly, the M48A3s supplied appeared to also have been largely without their searchlights. While it is also clear that the variant with the Xenon light (unit 014) was used, I would suggest adding in a vision 0 variant.

[thatguy96]

So I just wanted to quickly amend my position on the M8 armored car (Unit 266). According to the US Army's Vietnam series monograph, "Mounted Combat in Vietnam," a 1967 US Army study suggested that remaining M8 squadrons be replaced with M113 squadrons. So, I would suggest perhaps pushing the M8 end date to 12/67 or even 12/68. I, however, stand by my belief that by the 1970s, it is likely that none of these vehicles remained in any form of active service.