Thug Commanders

[Skirmisher]

When is a thug a thug? I mean if you put lev 2 construction items on a commander , would that be considered a thug?

I don't seem to be having success sending one or two thugs againsts a larger force.

[K]

Originally Posted by Skirmisher

When is a thug a thug? I mean if you put lev 2 construction items on a commander , would that be considered a thug?

I don't seem to be having success sending one or two thugs againsts a larger force.

Thugs are commanders that have a good chance of doing 20-30 kills if tossed into a regular force(and surviving).

SCs are the only things that are supposed to solo larger forces alone, and even then building them is an art that requires Con6 items and the best summons in the game. A good thug really is just supposed to reduce the numbers of friendly casualties as opposed to taking things alone.

[JimMorrison]

Originally Posted by K

Thugs are commanders that have a good chance of doing 20-30 kills if tossed into a regular force(and surviving).

SCs are the only things that are supposed to solo larger forces alone, and even then building them is an art that requires Con6 items and the best summons in the game. A good thug really is just supposed to reduce the numbers of friendly casualties as opposed to taking things alone.

OR to work in small packs. Some easily amassed units can be brutally effective against smaller or poorly supported forces, with a couple of key items (and possibly a little buffing ability).

[HoneyBadger]

Thugs are units that you can take an independent province with maybe 12 of them at most, working together. They're meant to support each other, as a unit, or to support a larger force of regular soldiers.

Thugs, unlike SCs, you can gradually salt into your main force, until they eventually *become* your main force-or atleast a significant portion of it. SCs on the other hand are always meant to be in the center of the action, performing a specific, important role, either as the single unit-as in a solo SC-or as the linchpin unit-that provides the support necessary to take a Province that you simply couldn't take with normal units, or atleast without much heavier casualties and risk.

The primary difference between a thug and an SC is that thugs are meant to work as a small but powerful-and often versatile-unit, while SCs perform all the functions of a thug unit, all by itself.

Another major difference between a thug and an SC is the amount of time, money, resources, equipment, gems, etc. you should be willing to invest in them. A thug can be kitted out with equipment, but not so much that it's going to cripple you to lose that thug. Thugs aren't as expendable as a common soldier, but they're a good degree more expensive than an SC, and they often find themselves in more dangerous situations than either a soldier or an SC.

It's my opinion, atleast, that SCs shouldn't be used to statically defend provinces, in many cases. Thugs are great for this role, because they compliment PD, but defending a province with an SC makes it a great big target, and the more stationary it is, the better chance the enemy will find a way to take it out. So mobility and maneuverability is another SC byword.

Artifacts really shouldn't end up in the hands of thugs. It's fine of that's all you've got, but it really should be the SC carrying those around.

Curse and Horror Mark can be pretty dangerous for a thug. Curse and Horror Mark for an SC, though, should always be anticipated. SCs thrive on MR, and you should take extreme measures to raise SC MR as high as possible. You really can't have too much. And an SC should be able to deal with atleast a Lesser Horror, handily.

Take a really close look at the Pretender chassis-an SC should be able to whip any unmodified, unequipped, Pretender chassis-from a cyclops to a wyrm, to even maybe a gorgon (arguably the most powerful SC chassis), without significant risk, having given your SC decent gear ofcourse.

A thug isn't a thug unless it can take out atleast 6 heavy infantry, solo. An SC, on the other hand, ought to be able to take out unlimited heavy infantries (if they're unsupported), until the clock runs out. If paralysed and helpless, an SC should still be able to survive for multiple rounds. Any single affliction should not by itself be able to remove an SC's super-combatant status. If an SC isn't in the Hall of Fame, it should only be because there are other SCs, or Pretenders, ahead of them.

SCs do not require support from other units. They can definitely benefit from it-an SC surrounded by 6-12 thug bodyguards can be a powerful force-but it shouldn't be required on a permanent basis. It's a good idea if you can make it happen, though. If necessary, an SC can defend a province by itself handily, for atleast a turn (long enough to purchase some PD). An SC should never be able to be defeated by numbers alone, there should always be a factor that's required to take one out-whether it's barbarians, undead, a spell, enemy thugs, whatever. And SCs should be immune to some of the things your enemy will try-resistant to elemental magic, high MR, etherial, whatever. The more immunities the better. Thugs can afford just to be tough and mean.

Thugs can also afford to be permanently specialized to combat a specific threat. If you're playing Shinuyama, for instance, it's perfectly acceptible to make several kappa chieftains into thugs, because you know you can use them for getting into the water, and holding on to it. That's their purpose, the reason you created them. If you use them to break a seige, because they're your closest A-team, that's secondary to their purpose. It's useful, but incidental.

You could still kit out a cyclops Pretender for entering the water, but you've got to be ready to use him for a lot more than that-it's not a good idea to commit him to *just* taking water provinces. That's not why you build SCs.

That said, you can build SCs for specific purposes-like an ancient kraken for early underwater expansion-but be prepaired to take steps to eventually get your kraken on the land.

Strategies should be built around SCs more than SCs built around strategies. Thugs are great, but they're always supplimentary to your theater of war. Thugs are special forces, commandoes, maybe even tanks. SCs are, if anything, aircraft carriers. Thugs you can place where you need, where things are the hottest, or where you expect an attack, but aren't sure when. You don't have to spend a lot of time thinking about them, they're there to use. SCs you should *always* be thinking about, on a long term basis. And if you lose one, you should feel it. Until the Late Game, it should be a setback to lose an SC.

Thugs you're going to lose, eventually. With thugs, you should always be thinking in terms of numbers. How many do you need to fulfill a task, and what's the cheapest gear they need to complete that task? Thugs get horned helmets and fear helmets-cheap but effective. SCs get 50 deathgem wraithcrowns. Thugs you can afford to give 2-handed weapons to. If an SC has a 2-handed weapon, it needs to be a great one, and it should usually be specialized-gate cleaver for taking castles, or arena tridents, because you're dominating there, or hellswords because they're fantastic. Thugs get equipment as you can afford to give it to them, cheap stuff first. SCs get every slot filled with either specialized gear, or the best gear possible.

Cost is a factor with thugs, it isn't a factor with SCs. SCs are commanders, every time. The closest recruitables get to being SCs is probably the sacred hydra, but the difference there is that even if you've got a triple 10 bless on them, they're static. They only improve as your national spells improve, and as they gain experience. SCs can improve themselves outside of your national arc. Thugs can too, ofcourse, if they're commanders, but the effect is always diluted by their numbers, and by the fact that thugs are meant to suppliment what you've already got.

An SC can be completely apart from the rest of your Nation-you can have an SC going in entirely different directions from what the rest of your nation is doing. Thugs have to stay closer to home.

And SCs-as mentioned-can solo. Thugs should never, ever solo, unless you're using them as a scout, or as an assassin. Trying to solo with a thug is just wasting a valuable thug, even if you're taking a Province without any commanders-because a single Thug can't hold a Province by itself.

[Edratman]

Honey, that is the best explanation of thugs/Sc's that I've seen.

[thejeff]

I'd disagree though that thugs should never solo. A decent thug can often handle reasonable levels of PD. If you've got recruitable thugs, early on they can often take independents.
Thugs, especially if they're cheap enough, make great raiders. They'll get killed eventually and the provinces retaken, but it can be cost effective. Stealthy thugs are best, since they can sneak away before even a teleporter can get to them.

[Poopsi]

Some thug/SC chassis suggestions plz?

[Sombre]

Thugs - Black Servant, Bane, Banelord (straying into lesser SC territory here), Sleeper, lesser angels, any tough recruitable commander like a sidhe, even LA Ulm's Hochmeister etc

Basically anything with a decent number of combat advantages and itemslots at a low cost.

[Agema]

I'd do a bit of SP testing with thugs.

Personally, I think the key to thugs is that you're expecting them to take out large numbers of basic units who don't have magical weapons or mage support. I'd say a decent thug should be able to kill at least 10 points of PD comfortably.

They need to either avoid being hit (e.g. missile shield, awe, ethereal) or able to resist damage when hit (25+ protection, mistform). They should be able to kill quickly, more than 1 enemy per turn. If they have high encumbrance, they'll need reinvigoration. If you know your opponent has some sort of aura (eg. fire for Abysia, cold for undead), you need the appropriate resistance.

Thugs tend to have limited HP, which also means regeneration is often limited use, so don't go out of your way. Similarly you shouldn't be spending gems on non-essential elemental resistances or magic resistance. The exception might be something near the thug/SC borderline (e.g. a banelord) which is worth investing more in.

For a great bit of info how to turn units that don't at first seem very dangerous into nasty thugs, Baalz has a guide on Eriu (Tir Na Nog?) which has some pointers with their Sidhe and Tuatha.

[Bwaha]

My favorite thug is a gift of reasoned gargoyle.