Stellar Manipulation Suggestion for 1.42

[Magus38]

Hello All

The whole point of having systems connected via warp points, rather than just open space, is that it makes the game more interesting from a strategic point of view. Warp Points create the equivalent of chokepoints and borders, allowing the development of fleet deployment strategies. Every good strategy game set in space must do this (Homeworld does not count as it is an RTS). The problem of strategy-nullifying open space was handled differently in MOOII, to give an example, as you could develop a technology that created an intense gravity well around a planet which would slow an approaching enemy fleet to one hex per turn once they were within a certain range of the world. This is a different solution, but completely viable. The problem with completely open space is that the enemy can appear anywhere quickly on his turn and if your fleet was not already sitting there waiting for him then he could destroy with relative impunity, this is first strike capability for which there is no technological counter currently in the game. Which brings me to my suggestion.

Stellar Engineering, as we all know, allows for the creation of warp points eventually up to 500 LY away from the anchor system (50 squares away on the galaxy map). Again, there is no way to defend against this whatsoever. A warp point opens and in pops a fleet which can conceivably wipe out the system. Now there is technological recourse for the worst case scenario, black hole creation or the destruction of the system's star, (i.e. the System Gravitational Shield Facility), but a decent fleet can still glass every world within the system THAT TURN without resorting to a more "Stellar" attack. IMO, this seriously weakens the strategic instrumentality of warp points.

To offset this, I propose one of two possible solutions. The first option could be to allow the System Gravitational Shield Facility to prevent the creation of a Warp Point in that system. Alternatively, make it so that a new Warp Point is unstable the turn of its' creation and is not usable until the following turn. In my mind this might be the better way to go as it keeps a great technology in the game, preserves the technology as a very serious threat, but allows a player's carefully thought out deployment strategies to function the way they were meant to... in other words the targeted player has a chance to close the Warp Point or to rally his defense force. If the target player is unprepared to do this then tough luck - he is being penalized for poor gameplay and the attacker is being rightly rewarded. At least, however, the defender had a chance.

True first strike capability has always been massively destabilizing, both historically and in strategy gaming. I sincerely hope that Malfador corrects this imbalance.

Thoughts?


[This message has been edited by Magus38 (edited 05 September 2001).]

[Beck]

Actually unless its been changed in the Last patch, there is a defense. You can only have ten WP's in a system. It is a simple matter to create the maximum number of WP's to other systems thereby denying others the ability to open a WP in your system.

[Phoenix-D]

More, you can open those WPs all in the same sector, greatly simplifing defense. Popping into the teeth of 30 missile-armed sats, 10-20 bases, and a planet (with moon, if possible) equipped with cargo facilties and heavy WPs would NOT be my idea of an easy assult.

Beyond that, in simultanious games- i.e. all PBW games and some email games- your enemy has time to react to your surprise, because you give the order to open the WP, and then when the orders go through it works. Thing is, you can't tell ships to warp through a point which isn't there yet, and your opponent gets told of what happened the same turn you do.

Phoenix-D

[Suicide Junkie]

quote:

---

and a planet (with moon, if possible)

---

Hey, why not make it a sphereworld.
128,000 cargo.
That's 213 Large Weapon platforms with a thousand weapons, and a bazillion hitpoints. All 100% maintenance free.

Note that as soon as you build that sphereworld, it is easy to make all your warppoints converge on it. Plus, you can ship in all those platforms from the rest of your empire's planets, making the build time essentially zero.

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 05 September 2001).]

[CyC]

The creation and deletion of worm holes happens before ship movement in se4

there fore you can tell the ship to open a worm hole and tell the fleet to move thru to the targetted end of the worm hole, it will show the path going the long way because there is no worm hole yet, but the worm hole is created before the fleet moves and the fleet always chooses the shortest path in this case thru the newly created worm hole.

So you can create and move ships thru the new worm hole in the same turn in similtanious play e.g. in pbw

and yes a facility to be able to stop worm holes being targetted at your system is a good idea, at the moment my only defence against it is to spread my forces and factories out so no one system is of great value to my race.

------------------
CyC
L+++ GdY $!+ Fr+ C--- S* T!- Sf++ Tcp++ A? M++ MpM RV Pw+ Fq++ Nd+++++ Rp++ G

[geoschmo]

quote:

---

Originally posted by CyC:
...at the moment my only defence against it is to spread my forces and factories out so no one system is of great value to my race.

---

quote:

---

Therefore, if we can make the enemy show his position while we are formless, we will be at full force while the enemy is divided.
Sun Tzu, "The Art of War", Chapter 6

---

You are very wise Cyc.

Geo

[CW]

Just about the only weapon that lets you defeat an overwhelmingly powerful foe is my favourite, the allegiance subverter. Add in a Computer Virus III if you are fighting MC ships. It doesn't always work, and you have only one shot, but if it does magic happens!

quote:

---

Hence a wise general makes a point of foraging on the enemy. One cartload of the enemy's provisions is equivalent to twenty of one's own, and likewise a single picul of his provender is equivalent to twenty from one's own store.

Sun Tzu, "The Art of War", Chapter 2

---

[This message has been edited by CW (edited 05 September 2001).]

[Magus38]

Thanks for the input everyone.

I am aware of the 10 WP limit, but this hardly seems a solution, rather it simply exploits a limitation of the system and so merely provides an awkward workaround (this is not to say that I wouldn't do it in extremis though).

A good general (as Sun Tzu makes clear) always seeks to match concentration against dispersion. You are constantly seeking to be elsewhere than your opponent believes you to be, attacking where he believes you will defend, etc. To accomplish this you must know yourself, know your enemy and know the terrain. Unfortunately, WP technology renders the terrain essentially unknowable.

This has bothered me for some time actually, I am surprised that it has not been as issue before as it is so obviously destructive to strategy. All you can do in such a situation is react.

[Deathstalker]

I am in a PBW game right now where wormholes are opening up all the time, usually with a fleet of 100+ ships (mostly baseships) right behind it. NOT GOOD!! This lack of defense against wormholes combined with no way to retreat from tac/strategic combat are IMO the two biggest deficiencies in se4.

I second the motion to have a 'gravity well' device or somesuch that prevents wormholes from entering a specific system (and a device that does not take 20+ turns to build!!!!)

<That and how about an option for 'emergency build' that applies to RESEARCH!, would work wonders!>

------------------
"And what the hell would you know about sanity?" demanded Beatrice. "There are depressed lemmings on the edge of cliffs who've got a better grasp on reality than you have. And more common sense."--Simon R. Green 'Deathstalker Rebellion'.

"We are all...the sum of our scars"....(paraphrased) Matt. R. Stover-'Blade of Tyshalle'.

"Memory," the old man said softly, "is tricky. I have learned two things from it. One: That without meaningful memories, there is no life. Two: that we are desperate for our lives to make sense, to have meaning,--and at a great enough remove , all memory is malleable." -Michelle West 'Sea of Sorrows', SunSword book IV.

[CW]

quote:

---

I second the motion to have a 'gravity well' device or somesuch that prevents wormholes from entering a specific system (and a device that does not take 20+ turns to build!!!!)

---

I'd rather not see that happen! It will make WP openers totally worthless! Better take the second option suggested with a bit of amendment - make the newly created warp points unstable for a few turns, let them be VERY unstable to start with then gradually stabilise out. A very desperate opponent can take the chance and risk his fleet wiped out by sending it straight through a newly created warp point, on the other hand you can play it safe by giving up your element of surprise - the longer you wait the less chance/degree of damage.