Thug and SC Statistics

[das123]

If you had to quantify what statistics/buffs for a Thug and also for a Super Combatant are minimum, average, maximum, and also a rating out of 5 for the importance of the statistic, what would they be? With buffs and items put in brackets the importance, once again, out of 5. The statistics are AFTER buff and items have been applied.

I know that there are many many options available and that each race has its own strategies, but I'm just looking for a basic target range. I'm interested because I have no real feel for the differences and it would help me to work out what sort of buffs and items I need to focus on. Also it will be interesting to see the different approaches people have.

Here's an example...
Code:

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THUG

              MIN   AVG   MAX   IMPORTANCE

Hit Points    15    25    40    4

Protection    12    16    22    5

Defence       10    14    20    4

Magic Resist  14    18    21    5

Strength      10    16    20    4

Attack        14    18    21    4

Precision     8     11    15    1

Morale        13    18    50    2

Encumbrance   0     4     7     3

Fatigue       0     0     4     3

Move (Battle) 8     12    50    1



Buffs/Items   EoF Weapon (3), Luck (3), Poison Resist (1)

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[Omnirizon]

I like this thread and am interested in hearing what people have to say, as I have always been a bit unsure on the bright line between thugs and SCs.

Your current outline for thugs looks pretty good. I think prot maybe a bit higher on average though. Also, I'd rate Luck as a 4, and fortunately (pun intended) it is very easy to acquire.

A good shield is a must for thugs too, Vine Shield is pretty standard, probably a 4 also.

moral is probably a 3, rather than a 2; but that's just me.

I want to do more on this later, but gotta go right now.

-Omni

[Zenzei]

I'd say encumberance/fatigue is definitely 5 in importance, without managing it one's thugs/SCs can't really even fight.

[sum1lost]

I would say that defence is far less important for SCs than for Thugs.

[Tifone]

The idea of this thread is good, the scheme is valid (with the little exception of Fatigue which is definitively a 5) for the many thugs going to support an army, or taking indie/enemy provinces with little defence.

As I have usually seen it, "thugs" are commanders equipped (with an eye to convenience) for some specific task.

So i.e. i consider thugs even the indie mages with N and A random picks which I can give eye of aiming and boots of quickness and a Ethereal Xbow/Black Bow of Botulf, Thunder Bow and so, and send to support an army. How should I consider them, SCs? For them the precision is important, as I want it boosted by Eagle Eyes and Aim before he/she starts shooting.

[JimMorrison]

I think generally Thug/SC tend to be concerned specifically with melee. The sniper/artillery builds seem to be less universally useful. Like in your example, since they're indie mages, you can't count on ever having them. Also, you probably won't give them any gear but the ranged item and a couple specific boosters (eye/boots), but much less gems invested than most melee units would expect.

I'm a little confused by the chart though, so not sure what else to add.

[Herode]

sum1lost said:
I would say that defence is far less important for SCs than for Thugs.

Why ?

[das123]

Thanks for the responses so far.

JimMorrison said:
I'm a little confused by the chart though, so not sure what else to add.

The figures I placed were just a stab in the dark and I was hoping the more experienced players would shed more light on it or make their own. What I specifically want out of it is a rough guide on building a thug or SC.

For example, just taking the morale line. In my chart the figures are 13/18/50 which would create a curved line rather than a 13/31/50 which would be a straight line. (The median is 31.5.) The curve is important because it tells me as a newb that the average is lower than the median so I don't need to aim for a morale of 31. If I'm around the 16 or 17 mark then that's OK. If it drops below the 13 figure then I should reconsider but it is isn't all that important because the importance rating is only 2. Does that make sense? I hope I've explained it correctly.

I was expecting different players to have different ratings as well which would be interesting to see the focus and play style within the game.

I suppose that many of the experienced players just have a natural feel for it so I was hoping to turn that 'art' into a 'science', or at least a rough guide.

[JimMorrison]

Okay, I get it then. The whole min/max thing really threw me for some reason. I'm too tired to want to think through the chart, I'll give you a better post tomorrow.

I would recommend removing Precision as a factor at all though. Like I said before, Thugs and SCs are melee oriented by definition, so missile capabilities are of negligible importance compared to any other stat. Also, combat move may not really be relevant either, as it would generally always be the last stat looked at, and since base AP has no bearing whatsoever on actual combat effectiveness, the main difference is just in the layout and scripting of the army.

[Tifone]

I take your point Jim but I don't share it, sorry SCs seems to me "melee oriented by definition", as they are supposed to be able to take a province with heavy enemy PD by themselves, so surely they will be engaged in melee by many enemy units and they will need to resolve it somehow... be it Fear, Awe, Petrification, AoE weapons, the Aegis or what else

As I found the thug defined in the "Thug Built" thread, it is some commander or summon, equipped in a way that gives him some value for a task but without spending lots of gem-worthy items on it (better to save those expensive items for already strong SCs to make them hopefully almost unbeatable, right? ) So, the strong archers-commanders with the specific task of feebleminding enemy commanders with the Black Bow of Botulf, or to Soul Slay large creatures with the Ethereal Crossbow, and of course the ones you find in the thread about thug builts who are used to shoot 4 fire bolas/turn or 2 charm/turn (with crown of overmight), well, they all seems fitting the definition of thugs - to me. Otherwise we don't have any definition for them yet and it seems strange to me, as we've been them around for years now

I'm not saying that you definition (about melee) of thugs is less valuable than the one I found around, or just wrong. Hell no! I'm just saying it can be opinable, and Precision can be a factor for some builts.

Peace on you ^_^