Which nations most represent chaos or evil?

[moderation]

Edit: for clarification, the first question applies to EA, the second to MA, and the last to LA. I got a bit tired and copy-pasted one too many fields.

Okay, I'm just looking for more ideas for my Good vs Evil, Chaos vs Order game here.

[B0rsuk]

Please define evil.

[Cor2]

I suppose its supposed to say EA, MA, and LA. yes?

[moderation]

Yes it is, good catch. Anyway evil is slightly easier to define. The Wikipedia definition of evil is actually pretty useful here. However it gets into some rather philosophical territory as well. Here is the preface to it:

Evil is a broad term used to indicate a negative moral or ethical judgment, often used to describe intentional acts that are cruel, unjust, or selfish. Evil is usually contrasted with good, which describes intentional acts that are kind, just, or unselfish.

I think it's pretty safe to say we would consider sacrificing blood slaves to fuel your nation's war effort is rather evil. Could you make an argument that perhaps the war is necessary, so therefor the sacrifice of the blood slaves serves a greater purpose. Well, maybe, but this might be venturing into murkier territory than we need to.

Perhaps we can suffice to say that evil nations in Dominions are ones whose pretender god is likely to engage in sadistic or malicious practices for personal gain, eg, sacrificing blood slaves, casting death magic global enchantments that would ruin the whole world, reanimating it's living citizens as ghouls, mind enslaving people and depriving them of free will, and so on. Basically the sort of nation you would want to run far far away from if you were one of those people living in one of those provinces on the map. Kind of a stretch maybe, but an interesting thought experiment too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil

[Edi]

I expect evil to be defined here as a culture of excessive cruelty and practicing the kind of things that would be abhorrent from a humanist point of view (human sacrifice, slavery etc etc). There are several nations in all eras that fit the definition of evil by those standards. The thing is, most of the nations are not evil as such, but can be depending on what sort of god they would follow. But take EA and LA Mictlan, LA Ermor, R'lyeh in all eras, Lanka, Yomi, Shinuyama and LA Marignon to name just a few, those an be considered directly evil.

[B0rsuk]

I certainly don't agree about LA Marignon. They are about as 'evil' as MA Ermor - they try to control death/demons. Marignon is happy because the situation has stabilised. Demons are happy with their new revenue stream.

R'lyeh... They are not so much evil as uncaring. They treat humans and other intelligent beings as lower forms of life - similar to how humans treat animals. At least that's how they're described in Lovecraft's books. They dominate what they see as lower life forms. Compare to EA Arcoscephale. People of Arcoscephale are completely aware that slaves are people, too. Similar feelings, mental capacity, abilities, etc. Yet they benefit from slavery. They have time to engage in philosophy and arts because slaves perform all the menial tasks.

Lanka ? Lanka is dominated by demonic influence. Demons rule by fear. All the monkeys and apes aren't evil as such. They manage to overthrow their government by middle era.

[moderation]

The fact that Arcocephale practices slavery is interesting. Does this put them in the evil category then? Well maybe, but then again, by the standards of real world history around 3000 BC, maybe they weren't that bad. But it's a tricky question.

For the purposes of two faction game (which I admit may be over-simplified for a philosophical discussion), probably not since they would probably still oppose EA Mictlan's blood sacrificing demon holocaust. But then again, maybe Arcos would be indifferent or neutral as long as Mictlan's rituals didn't impact their way of life.

Of course when we're thinking about Acroscephale, we're also thinking about the ancient Greek city states that it was modeled on, so then things get more complicated if we want to get specific about which city-state and if we can really draw any comparisons. In any case, this is pretty interesting stuff.

[Kristoffer O]

Remember the Jotuns. They are evil per definition as enemies of the vanir (who in turn have no qualms on enslaving humans and other lesser beings).

I did not have the intention to do 'evil' or 'good' nations, but it might be fun to speculate in how evil a nation actually is. I have an easier time to see an 'evil' nation, since evil is in the eye of the beholder. Behold Mictlan and see what teh europeens saw in Mexico, and said it was evil. Any nation with connections to supernatural forces unfriendly to humans might be considered evil from a human perspective. The eye of the beholder works less well on 'good' nations. The 'great satan' of the rethoric of the late Ayatollah Khomeini considers itself to be the 'good' nation and 'defender of the free', even though many would argue the point. Swedes might consider sweden a nation of good sionce we have the secon highest tax pressure in the world and therefore have a good social security net (or whatever it is called). But Saudiarabia have income taxes at 2.5 % (not in the 50'es of sweden) and has is even lower hospital treatment costs than sweden. They cut the the hands of thieves, which might be percieved as cruel.

Hmm, I lost focus

Since most nations are humans I think the nations directly hostile to humanity qualify as evil. Abysia, Mictlan, LA Ermor, Niefelheim, Lanka, Fomoria, Yomi, Shinuyama.

Vanheim, Helheim, Bandar Log, C'tis might be considered evil in the sense that they care little for humans, but C'tis at least have had friendly contacts with Ermor in earlier ages and is probably considered ancient instead of evil.

Pangaea is definitely evil as a force opposed to civilization. At least in the earlier ages. That assumption might make EA Ulm evil as well, since they are opposed to the ermorian civilization, hope of humanity.

Hmm, is it the culture of the nations we are speaking, or their leader or their God? Culturally LA Ulm might be nice, but their leaders possibly evil.

Interesting poll though

[Sombre]

Are shinuyama directly hostile to humans?

[Kristoffer O]

Not more than in a cannibalistic ands hedonistic sense.

Edit: dai bakemono are probably less so, being bound by honor. Shuten doji, o-bakemono and bakemono-sho are definitely hostile to men/man-eaters. Kappas are more capricious. Some like to drown humans and suck their entrails out, while others can be friendly.