Dynamic modded Pantheon Council Game (discussion)

[Twan]

Having this idea since a long time, I plan to organize a game with dynamic modding (= a mod changed during the course of the game).

As the exigence of this kind of game are heavy for the gamemaster, and some bugs or mod limitations may be found during it, it will be a small game, 7 to 9 players max, 15 provinces or so per player (if possible experienced players with knowledge of mod commands -if I make an error in the mod they must be able to find it- and able to respect rather complex rules), limited duration (around 60 turns).

Note that I won't play in this game, just make the mod and map and host it (it will be an artisanal PBEM, to be able to change the mod without giving more work to llama).

I have a lot of cool ideas about rules, for the moment this thread is mostly to discuss them and say if you will be interested (game won't start before some weeks).

The pace of the game will also be rather slow, with a 2 or 3 days long pause every 6 turns, when I change the mod (but with a council phase/vote during this pause). I'll release the mod changelog as soon as possible so players can verify I've not made mistake, then the elected god will add his changes, and finally I'll make the final version, send the mod to players and host the next turn with it.

Here's my project of rules...



---- THE RULES


The morale and NAP system :
----------------------------

Morale will be the only base stat non upgradable, but the morale will vary in function of diplomacy. NAP breaking will reduce the morale of some national units for a year.

- All players are divinities of the same pantheon and start with a non agression pact with all others , once these pacts have been broken, they can be concluded again (the two nations have just to announce their new pact in the game thread), the council can also forces players to conclude NAPs

- Official non agression pact have a default unlimited duration, except
* if the two players agree for an end of their NAP without penalties
* if one of the two players wins a vote in the council phase to remove the pact

- Only attacks on ennemy provinces are considered NAP breaking (spells, assassinations, etc... don't break a NAP if their effect don't change the province ownership). Master password will be used by me to verify nap violations.

- Breaking a NAP will reduce the morale of 3 kind of nationals troops of the attacker by 3 for 12 turns, the morale reduction being effective from the next patch to the second after ;

- The victim chose which troops are affected

- A same unit can be affected by several morale penalties from several broken NAPs but can't be chosen several times by a done victim

(of course once armies are no longer composed of national troops, NAPs become less important)



The Council Phase :
-------------------

Every 6 turns, a pantheon council phase takes place.

During the council phase, each player can launch one vote, or be candidate to the god function.

Votes players can organize are :
- for the removal of a pact (if majority agrees, a NAP between two nation ends without penalties)
- for the end of a war (if majority agrees, a NAP is concluded between the two nations, continuing to siege a fort is considered an attack in this case)

- Winning a vote he proposed, or being elected god, will give a player +2 morale for one national unit of his choice for 6 months.


God Elections, Scales and Settings System :
-------------------------------------------

- Each 6 turns, during the council phase a God election takes place.

- Can only be candidates player who have not proposed another vote, but all players may always vote.

- A player can vote for himself. If several players are ex-aequos, the player with the smaller number of provinces will be chosen, or a roll will decide the winner if number of provinces are the same.

- One player can only have one god function at a time. But an already god can be elected to a new function, in this case the commands of his first god title are no longer available.

- The gods functions are : God of Earth, God of Destiny, God of Magic and Elements, God of Mischief elected in this order

- Once elected a god can change up to 3 of the following settings each 6 turns (he can make changes the turn he is elected)

- The elected god has no obligation over his electors (as always in politics, a candidate may make false promises).

- The God of Earth has control on the following commands :
poppergold from 60 to 150
ressourcemult from 60 to 150
supplymult from 60 to 150
slothresources from 10 to 25
coldsupply from 5 to 20

- The God of Destiny has control on the following commands :
turmoilevents from 0 to 10
misfortune from 7 to 15
luckevents from 3 to 9
eventsisrare from 5 to 25
deathdeath from 1 to 5

- The God of Magic and the elements...
researchscale from 1 to 3
deathincome from 1 to 4
coldincome from 3 to 7
path mainlevel of one magic item +/- 1 (the level of an item can't be changed by more than 1 compared to vanilla)

- The God of Mischief has control on the following commands :
turmoilincome from 4 to 8
unresthalfinc from 25 to 75
unresthalfres from 50 to 150
slothincome from 1 to 4
deathsupply from 10 to 25



The upgrade system :
------------------------------

One national unit (and only national units, commanders included) can be upgraded every 6 turns. Upgrades are definitive.

The map will have 1 VP per capitol and as many random VP. Each VP will give one upgrade point every 6 turns.

Upgrade points can be accumulated and will be listed in game thread. The use of upgrade point has to be announced in game thread in the day following turn 6 (then the mod will be made to implement the changes).

Only one unit can be changed every 6 turns (to make easier the gamemaster work), but the same unit can recieve several upgrades at a time, if a sufficient number of points are available.


1 point upgrade
- +1 to one of these (base*) stats for one unit type : att, def, str, prec, mr (can't be increased more than three times 3 times or if already 15 or more)
- +2 hp for one unit (can be increased one time by base hp/10 rounded down - = can't be increased for markatas, can be increased one time for humans, 3 or 4 times for giants)
- wastesurvival for one unit
- resistance 25 against one element for one capitol only unit (can't be increased more than 2 times)

* "mounted" and equipment bonus aren't counted in the 15 limit

2 points upgrade
- +1 mapmove for one unit (mapmove can't be increased by more than one for a done unit, and infantry units starting with mapmove 2 or more can't be upgraded)
- forest, mountain or swampsurvival for one unit
- castledef +1 for one unit (max 3)
- pillagebonus +1 for one unit (max 3)
- patrolbonus +1 for one unit (max 3, will be available after patch 3.12)
- upgrading the armor of one unit in classical metal body armor to a superior category (ring mail -> scale mail -> chain mail -> plate mail) ; will change the rcost for creating more units of this type ; units with unusual armors can't be upgraded this way ; units armor coverage (cuirass/hauberk/full) won't be changed either

3 points upgrade
- replacing one weapon of one capitol only unit by a magical version of same weapon (become #magic and get +2 dammage)
- giving awe to one capitol only unit (or +2 awe if the unit start with awe)
- making holy a non holy capitol only unit (will also double the unit cost)
- +1 base level in one of his paths for one kind of mage (maximum one increase of this kind by mage unit, available paths are only the ones the mage may have, randoms included)
- giving stealth to one unit (or +10 stealth for already stealthy units, an unit can be upgraded one time for stealth and one for +10 ; units having already stealth>10 or glamour can't be affected)
- +1 holy/unholy level for one kind of priest (can't be upgraded more than one time)

4 points upgrade
- +1 base level in any prophane magic path (even non national) for a mage (cumulative with the +1 level in one of his path, maximum one additional level)
- replacing one weapon of one capitol only unit by an armor-piercing version of same weapon (the weapon may be magical or not)
- natural protection +4 for one capitol only unit
- fear (0 or +2) for one capitol only unit

5 points upgrade
- making a capitol only unit available in all forts (may be an unit with upgrades reserved to capitol only ones, but once made non capitol only the unit can't recieve more of them)

--

ps1 : all numbers may change

ps2 : I will also change the 4 gods functions probably, I'll try to make so no god has a total control on one scale's effects, and no function is better than another

[quantum_mechani]

This looks quite fun, I've contemplated organizing similar games before, but could never quite put together enough energy and other players.

[llamabeast]

This sounds very cool, I might well be up for playing in this.

[quantum_mechani]

Some random thoughts:

*I don't think any survival skill is worth more than 1 point.

*Pillage bonus should be more like 5 for one point, castle and siege 2 for one point, patrol 1 for 1.

*Mage upgrades seem too cheap compared to troop ugrades.

*Maybe sailing for 2 points?

*Perhaps the appointed pretender positions could be rearranged a bit?

--Gods can make 1 change every 6 turns--

-God of Nature-
supplymult from 50 to 200
deathincome from 1 to 4
deathsupply from 10 to 25

+2 votes if chassis Lord of Fertility, Great White Bull, Lord of the Forest, Divine Serpent; +1 for any chassis that already starts with nature.

-God of Earth-
slothresources from 10 to 25
resourcemult from 50 to 200
path mainlevel of one earth magic item +/- 1 (the level of an item can't be changed by more than 1 compared to vanilla)

+2 votes if chassis Lord of War, Forge Lord, Cyclops, Lord of Plenty; +1 for any chassis that already starts with earth

-God of Fate-
misfortune from 7 to 15
luckevents from 3 to 9
eventsisrare from 5 to 25

+2 votes if chassis Oracle, female Titan, Lady of Fortune, Lord of Plenty; +1 for any chassis that already starts with astral

-God of Turmoil-
turmoilevents from 0 to 10
unresthalfinc from 25 to 75
unresthalfres from 50 to 150

+2 votes if chassis Moloch, Lord of the Wild, Great Black Bull, Freak Lord; +1 for any chassis that already starts with blood

-God of Weather-
coldincome from 3 to 7
coldsupply from 5 to 25
May set perpetual storm, to any research level, path level and gems cost (any global related to an appointed position may never be cast with extra gems in it, but anyone dispelling it against the reigning gods wishes would be subject to a morale penalty.)

+2 votes if chassis Lord of the Sky, male Titan, Son of the Heavens, Daughter of the Dawn; +1 for any chassis that already starts with air

-God of the Sea-
May set sea of ice, wrath of the sea, thetis' blessing and ghost armada to any research level, path level and gems cost (only one may be modded from base game values at a time, and one cannot be reset while active)
path mainlevel of one sea item (sea king's goblet, wave breaker, robe of the sea, clam of pearls, bottle of living water, pocket ship) +/- 1 (the level of an item can't be changed by more than 1 compared to vanilla)

+2 votes if chassis Son of the Sea, Lord of the Waves, Fomorian God King, Old Man of the Sea; +1 for any chassis that already starts with water

-God of Death-
deathdeath from 1 to 5
May set foul air, utterdark, and burden of time to any research level, path level and gems cost.

+2 votes if chassis Prince of Death, Lord of the Gates, Lord of Rebirth, any lich pretender; +1 for any chassis that already starts with death

-God of the Sun-
poppergold from 60 to 150
May set second sun, the kindly ones to any research level, path level and gems cost

+2 votes if chassis Solar Disc, Phoenix, Son of the Sun, Lord of the Desert Sun; +1 for any chassis that already starts with fire

-Ruler of the Gods-
turmoilncome from 5 to 15
researchscale from 1 to 3
Reigning ruler of the gods may break NAPs with impunity, and breaks any ties for other positions in the next election.


EDIT: I'd also suggest that each pretender may only vote for themselves for one position.

[LoloMo]

Sounds like a very interesting political game, like the survivor tv series. I would be interested, although I don't know how to mod.

[Twan]

quantum_mechani said:
Some random thoughts:

*I don't think any survival skill is worth more than 1 point.

Yes in fact I've just valued more the survival skills affecting movement because wastesurvival is the most crappy of them. But considering you need a commander and units with the skill they don't worth 2 points either.

*Pillage bonus should be more like 5 for one point, castle and siege 2 for one point, patrol 1 for 1.

Can't see why pillage should worth so much more than patrol. Pillage bonus is available on barbarians and it's rare to see people massing them and pillage often, pillage give more income than patrol but is a one trick poney, when the other is always usefull, for income, to catch spies and/or help blood hunting.

But levels >1 in the 3 abilities are rare, so I think cost may make harder to take them (ie 2pts for level 1, 4 for 2 and 5 for 3).

*Mage upgrades seem too cheap compared to troop ugrades.

My thought was the two best strategy were over-boosting a sacred troop, then making it non capitol only, or boosting low cost troops you can mass since the beginning, the two allowing to spend points each 6 turns with an immediate benefit.

So I've make mages upgrades rather cheap to make boosting magic as viable (especially in a short game), but perhaps too much (4/5 or even 5/7 instead ?).

*Maybe sailing for 2 points?

I forgot several commander abilities (sailing, spy -2 or 3pts ?-, assassin -3 or 4?-, seduce - need to be female assassin and +2pts ?-, increasing leadership -1pt for non mages, 2 or 3 for mages ?-) probably interesting to add.

For sailing it may worth more or less, it's very map dependant, so I'll rather give it a cost once a map is chosen.

--Gods can make 1 change every 6 turns--

Yes it's what I wanted to say, but my phrase wasn't clear : gods may make 3 changes, one the turn they are elected, one 6 turns after, one 12 turns after, then another election takes place.

(eventually things like items or spells cost changes may be considered half or a third of a scale/general bonus change, allowing a god to make several at a time)

-God ...

Good idea to link a little pretenders chassis and positions, but I want diplomacy and electoral campaign to remain important, and it may be hard to balance or too static if one chassis choice can give 3 voices to someone. Also all chassis would have to give such bonuses to one or another position.

So I think simpler to ask each player at the beginning of the game to announce one favorite position for which he'll get +1 voice, with as an obligation to write why his pretender type should have this bonus.

For the number of gods function, I wanted to set it to about half the number of players (make them elected for less time and give more competition), but your ideas are so cool it may change (perhaps 2 gods elected every 6 turns and 8 gods total, so the duration of a god's reign doesn't change).

I'm not sure dynamic modding works for spells (adding spells during a game doesn't work at least) and don't have secondary effect on globals (ie : making easier or harder to dispell them if cost changes).

[quantum_mechani]

Twan said:
Can't see why pillage should worth so much more than patrol. Pillage bonus is available on barbarians and it's rare to see people massing them and pillage often, pillage give more income than patrol but is a one trick poney, when the other is always usefull, for income, to catch spies and/or help blood hunting.

You misunderstand, I was saying pillage bonus should be drastically cheaper- 5 pillage points for one upgrade point.

Good idea to link a little pretenders chassis and positions, but I want diplomacy and electoral campaign to remain important, and it may be hard to balance or too static if one chassis choice can give 3 voices to someone. Also all chassis would have to give such bonuses to one or another position.

The most one chassis could give would be +2 (the +1 not being cumulative). All chassis would hardly need a bonus, pretender choices are so skewed anyway spreading some bonuses around could only improve things.

I'm not sure dynamic modding works for spells (adding spells during a game doesn't work at least) and don't have secondary effect on globals (ie : making easier or harder to dispel them if cost changes).

Base cost of a global has no effect on dispel ease. Still, there could definitely be some funky effects with changing spell stats mid game, it needs testing.

[Kristoffer O]

This sounds way cool!

There was once an idea to include a council of immortals in the first iteration of dom-ppp. It didn't make it into the game, and neither did pantheon ideas. This sounds like a splendid way to actually make something out of a the idea of a pantheon. The changing of scale settings in game is a remarkably good idea!

I also like the functions suggested by QM, but I think there need to be some kind limit on number of functions, unless the game is played with very many players.

Include a number of empty spells "Nation Spell 1" (perhaps one for each nation) to allow for later spellmodding. Or one spell for each divine function ("Fertility Function Spell 1"). Or both.
Perhaps one battle spell and one summon for each function.

[Nikolai]

Guys, my English is not as good as I wish, and may have a handicap in diplomacy, but I would love playing! Early Era? For more fun units...

[Aezeal]

I would be interested too.