Some gameplay questions and a couple not

[Wdll]

Hi all.

I have some questions that I would appreciate if anyone would be willing to answer for me. V3.5 free download version.

First of all, I always play on current dates, for example 2007-2008. Usually as Greece vs a variety of opponents. Core points 9999. Mines off.

1)Do aircraft (SEADs or Strike Elements) ever refill their ammo? If yes, how? Same question for off-map artillery.
If no, doesn't this make them useless? Or at least the least cost effective units in the game? Apart perhaps from the SEADs.

2)Is it possible to strike enemy off-map artillery?

3)Enemy plane (IIRC F-16) approaching from the west. Attacks and leave. On its flight path to the east I have 3 AAA. One that moves the last turn and two that haven't moved at all, all battle (about 10 turns in iirc). None of the AAA guns fire at the enemy plane. Two of them are on top of hills, 1 is on a road with closest hill to the west about 15 hexes.

4)I try to have an artillery observer, either inf or apc to visualy locate (able to T target)the enemy. I find it most of the time wasteful. If I want to target close enough enemy units then by the time the artillery fires (a couple of turns) it is too late since the enemy is either destroyed or moved. If the enemy is far away, for example enemy artillery, then there is no way other than complete luck, to have my arti observer close enoughto be able to spot the enemy units. The game doesn't let me use UAVs for some reason (it's ok) so my only hope is to either rush with several arti observers in "jeeps" or apcs and hope to reach the enemy, or use scout helicopters which at least in my case, don't see to be all that good in surviving.
So, am I right that I might as well just use no arti observers for my artillery?

5)When a vehicle is hit I get some numbers. What exactly do they mean? For example PEN 39, Arm 32 @54 degrees from a Leopard 1A5GR2 hitting but not killing a Type 59 tank.

6)The stats of ACC, KILL and PEN, how can I use them in a meaningful way? How much is the difference in real terms between a value X and a value Y?

7)Is there any good reason to use the tank carriers in a battle? Or are they there for scenarios only?

8)When playing a campaign, Generated one, does the enemy also have core units etc and has to repair his units or only you?

9)When playing a PBEM game I use the Green Box on the top right and I rarely get any info or animation from it. If I am lucky I will listen to some guns firing etc, but not actualy see anything, the map doesn't move to show who is firing or anything else, but when in a single player when the AI plays I can see everything. Is this normal? Or does the other guy cheats in some way? Or something else?

10)Is it possible to buy the full version but without the CD or at least the CD and a digital download of the game? For the last year or so I prefer by 95% to buy my games that way (Matrixgames, Totalgaming, Steam, gamersgate). I would love to be able to do so with this game too.

11)Some times I aim at an enemy unit and I get a percentage hit of say 67% but as soon as I give the order to fire, it gets much much lower even to single digits, is this normal?

Well, that's it.


EDIT:Is it possible for someone to please post a screenshot from 2 zoom levels out at a resolution of 1600x1200 during a game battle of course.

[thatguy96]

I'll answer the ones I can

1) No and no. Strike elements and other air units are as effective as you make them. As for being the least cost effective units in the game, when they range in price from 70-400 credits, there's a lot of variance in there to say that. If you point them randomly, then yes, they might be useless, but especially if you're playing against the AI its easy to learn where their marshaling points will generally be and strike there, even with "blind" bombers.

2) Yes, but only with your off-map artillery. Counter-battery fire is based on additional rules I can't remember specifically right now, and is noted when it happens.

3) What were the other factors? Type of aircraft (its speed and EW values), range, visibility of the AAA units and general visibility on the map, other obstacles if any? There are a lot of factors that affect engagements.

7) Probably not and yes. Regardless they are generally unrealistic outside of specific scenarios.

[Wdll]

thatguy96 said:

3) What were the other factors? Type of aircraft (its speed and EW values), range, visibility of the AAA units and general visibility on the map, other obstacles if any? There are a lot of factors that affect engagements.

I don't remember the type of aircraft, apart that I am pretty sure it was a F-16 variant.

The general visibility should be good. There wasn't much if any smoke on its flight path and no trees or higher ground in the LOS of the AAA guns towards the incoming plane. No trees, other units, buildings even near the guns for 7 or so hexes but even those that existed they were at a lower elevation since the AAA were on top of hills of 2 or 3 levels and the obstacles were on zero level ground.

I don't remember the EW rating of the plane but the specific AAA guns (I think they were the Artemis, with AA Radar F/C of 100, ranger finder 10 and EW 2).
The thing is, even if the EW is lower than of the plane, wouldn't the gun at least fire once?

[Smersh]

When a vehicle is hit I get some numbers. What exactly do they mean? For example PEN 39, Arm 32 @54 degrees from a Leopard 1A5GR2 hitting but not killing a Type 59 tank.

It's fairly simple. PEN 39 means penetration 39cm, and Arm 32 means the thickness of the object being hit 32cm. @54 degrees, means hitting at 54 degrees.

When the PEN number is above the ARM value and doesn't result in a kill, it means that the round penetrated but did not destroy the vehicle or something similiar. Usually this also results in some system on vehicle being damaged.

[PlasmaKrab]

Hello and welcome,

I'll give it a try as well

1)Do aircraft (SEADs or Strike Elements) ever refill their ammo? If yes, how? Same question for off-map artillery.
If no, doesn't this make them useless? Or at least the least cost effective units in the game? Apart perhaps from the SEADs.

As Mark said. There is no way of reloading offmap units, be them arty or planes. That doesn't make them less cost-effective, since the cost of all units (on- and offmap) is based only on the ammo carried by the unit itself. So an onmap arty unit won't be more expensive just because it may be reloaded.
Both offmap arty and planes are meant to be one-shot assets, detached from a superior command, i.e. not units you have direct authority over like the ones that are on the map.

2)Is it possible to strike enemy off-map artillery?

Some more on this: only offmap arty can strike opposite offmap arty. For this they need two things: a high enough experience rating (over 75 IIRC) and longer range than the enemy's guns. If your offmap arty matches these criteria and is idle for a couple of turns (you haven't ordered fire missions), it may respond when the enemy offmap arty fires. In that case you'll see a message saying something like "[your battery] fires counterbattery, [enemy battery] takes X hits(hits being crew casualties). Works the other way around as well, of course.

3)Enemy plane (IIRC F-16) approaching from the west. Attacks and leave. On its flight path to the east I have 3 AAA. One that moves the last turn and two that haven't moved at all, all battle (about 10 turns in iirc). None of the AAA guns fire at the enemy plane. Two of them are on top of hills, 1 is on a road with closest hill to the west about 15 hexes.

Some more precisions would be welcome on that. What was the F-16 armed with? More precisely, did it carry long-range missiles or LGBs? If so, it can attack from off the map, in which case AA units with short-range weapons (particularly guns) may not be able to engage it. In this case you will get a "standoff attack" message somewhere.
Otherwise, if you are positive it flew on the map, attacked something at short range, then turned around and went away, it may be a problem of field of view, or AA unit morale.

4)I try to have an artillery observer, either inf or apc to visualy locate (able to T target)the enemy. I find it most of the time wasteful. If I want to target close enough enemy units then by the time the artillery fires (a couple of turns) it is too late since the enemy is either destroyed or moved. If the enemy is far away, for example enemy artillery, then there is no way other than complete luck, to have my arti observer close enoughto be able to spot the enemy units. The game doesn't let me use UAVs for some reason (it's ok) so my only hope is to either rush with several arti observers in "jeeps" or apcs and hope to reach the enemy, or use scout helicopters which at least in my case, don't see to be all that good in surviving.
So, am I right that I might as well just use no arti observers for my artillery?

That will depend on the map you play on. Too much hilly/wooded terrain will leave little visibility for your FOs. They are truly useful only for large forces on large maps with good FOV depth. One trick I've found to work sometimes on large maps is to pick the highest, loneliest hill around (say around a central valley), stuff one FO team and some infantry support in a helo and dump the lot there, quiet and unobtrusive, monitoring the enemy advance below.
Also, light helicopters don't survive much when there's even AAMGs and infantry SAMs on the other side. What I generally do is make them pop up at high altitude to wake up the enemy SAMs, spot some moving or firing units, then take it back to ground level, move it back again, repeat until it can move without much risk and only then use it as arty spotter.

5)When a vehicle is hit I get some numbers. What exactly do they mean? For example PEN 39, Arm 32 @54 degrees from a Leopard 1A5GR2 hitting but not killing a Type 59 tank.

Easy one. PEN is short for "penetration". Based on the weapon stats of your Leopard and the armor stats of the Type-59, the game inputs distance and angle, calculates armor penetration at target distance, and angle-to-LOS of the target's side that has been hit. If the penetration result is superior to the armor result, the target is considered hit and will take damage. It may or may not be destroyed, depending on its "survivability" value and the penetration overkill.

6)The stats of ACC, KILL and PEN, how can I use them in a meaningful way? How much is the difference in real terms between a value X and a value Y?

Use them to see if your weapon is able to break the armor of the enemy units. Let's stick to tanks for now:
Most of the weapon stats are less relevant than unit stats.
E.g. ACC(uracy) effect can be neglected in regard with the unit's Fire Control, Rangefinder, Stabilization values and of course the crew's experience rating.
Penetration figures, now, can help you figure out if it's even worth the bother engaging certain enemy units with a specific unit of yours.
AP and APCR values are kinetic penetration values at range 0 of AP and Sabot rounds. This draws down over range, so take the range to target into account. As far as I've calculated the penetration value gets down of 2/3 of the max value over the whole range, e.g. a tank round with 60 sabot penetration and 100 sabot range will penetrate 40 armor (at angle 0�) out to 50 hex, and 50 out to 25 hex.
HEAT value is the penetration of the hollow-charge (chemical-energy) rounds. This one doesn't draw down with range, but takes on the "HEAT armor" value of the target, which is higher than steel armor if there is composite or standoff armor in it.
All these values are subject to slight variations. HEAT warheads can be considered defective and yield down to 25% of their nominal penetration. Any round can be a dud and not penetrate a thing (don't ask me what a dud AP round is though...). On the other hand you can hit critical spots of the target and gain random penetration bonuses.

7)Is there any good reason to use the tank carriers in a battle? Or are they there for scenarios only?

Nope. No use at all since at game scale track wear and maintenance needs are ruled out.

8)When playing a campaign, Generated one, does the enemy also have core units etc and has to repair his units or only you?

Not that I know of, figures the campaign is centered on your core force, you don't expect to run into the same enemy unit over and over, do you?

9)When playing a PBEM game I use the Green Box on the top right and I rarely get any info or animation from it. If I am lucky I will listen to some guns firing etc, but not actualy see anything, the map doesn't move to show who is firing or anything else, but when in a single player when the AI plays I can see everything. Is this normal? Or does the other guy cheats in some way? Or something else?

Good question, doesn't seem normal. I'm sorry I can't help you here, I've never run across the problem and I'm no expert of PBEM issues.

10)Is it possible to buy the full version but without the CD or at least the CD and a digital download of the game? For the last year or so I prefer by 95% to buy my games that way (Matrixgames, Totalgaming, Steam, gamersgate). I would love to be able to do so with this game too.

Not that I'm aware of, but there again there are more competent people in the Shrapnel staff for this.

11)Some times I aim at an enemy unit and I get a percentage hit of say 67% but as soon as I give the order to fire, it gets much much lower even to single digits, is this normal?

Don't set too much score in "preemptive" hit probabilities. It will change from one weapon to another at any rate, and different types of units will deal with it differently. Which kind of unit are you taking about specifically?

Hope that helps, don't hesitate to come back if you have more questions. Also reading the game guide through and through (and through) helps, dunno if you did.

[DRG]

9)When playing a PBEM game I use the Green Box on the top right and I rarely get any info or animation from it. If I am lucky I will listen to some guns firing etc, but not actualy see anything, the map doesn't move to show who is firing or anything else, but when in a single player when the AI plays I can see everything. Is this normal? Or does the other guy cheats in some way? Or something else?

Good question, doesn't seem normal. I'm sorry I can't help you here, I've never run across the problem and I'm no expert of PBEM issues.

[/quote]

BOTH players in a PBEM need to be set up in Preferences with "Fast arty OFF for you to see everything that happens.

Don

[whdonnelly]

As far as tank transporters go, I have found one use. The next time your MBT gets immobilised in a completely bad by an 81mm mortar or by crashing through a house, load it on a transport and move it somewhere to act as a pillbox. This seems like another additional support unit to waste precious points, but it can save a battle when you only have 2 or 4 tanks to begin with.
But be careful, the transports die easily.
Will

[Wdll]

Thank you all for your answers.
I am still a bit confused about the APCR and the ACC and the KILL values. Also the PEN : XX:YY the first number is at distance 0 and YY at max?
The ACC is percentage? The APCR is straight value?
What about KILL? What does it mean a 9:0 value?

I ordered the game, CD and all, a couple of days ago. Don't know how long it will take to arrive in Greece, but here is hoping.

Do you know if it is possible to continue an on going campaign with the retail version or do I have to finish it with the free version?
Do I have to uninstall the free version before installing the full?

I am excited about the game and my eyes are more. 800x600 on a 24" widescreen monitor is not THAT good. Pity there is no support for 16:10 resolutions, but lets not forget how old the game is.

Oh yeah, and do your units choose automaticaly what ammo/round they will use or can you actualy let them know what you want?

Again, thank you for the replies.

[Marek_Tucan]

Wdll said:
Also the PEN : XX:YY the first number is at distance 0 and YY at max?

First number is penetration for HE ammo, second is for AP ammo. In centimeters at 0 distance (HE �en doesn't change with distance)

The ACC is percentage?

Nope, it's "just a value" out there - with rifled guns it's usually barrel length in calibers divided by four - for example 75mm KwK-37 L/24 gets ACC 6; 75mm KwK-42 L/70 gets 17 or 18 (too lazy to check right now )

The APCR is straight value?

Again, penetration in cm at 0 distance.

What about KILL? What does it mean a 9:0 value?

KILL is anti-infantry effect and has two values - HE kill (first number) and AP kill (second number). AP kill is not used too often, except artillery firing cluster ammo.

Oh yeah, and do your units choose automaticaly what ammo/round they will use or can you actualy let them know what you want?

They have their own head

[JohnHale]

Wdll said:


i. Do you know if it is possible to continue an on going campaign with the retail version or do I have to finish it with the free version?

ii. Do I have to uninstall the free version before installing the full?


Again, thank you for the replies.

Here's a few answers:

i. It's not. You cannot chop and change a PBEM game between installs. It's to prevent chaps who are not gentlemen cheating in PBEM, if you think about it for a mo.

ii. No - when the cd prompts you to enter the file name (C/program files/shrapnel games/camo group/ etc etc.) simply tag on a suffix such as "cdversion" or such-like. Then it will be installed in a new folder and will not overwrite the DL version.

I'm running WinSPMBTcd and WinSPMBTcdpbem in addition to the original DL Winspmbt installation folder.

PS - you'll have to patch the cd version up to 3.5. When I got mine about six months ago, it was delivered as v1.0