Rough Speeds.

[chuckfourth]

Hi How about this one?
I think it would be a very interesting addition to the game to give the various vehicles there correct cross-country speeds.
Using rough speeds from http://www.tarrif.net/
For example we find
German sdkfz 251 Halftrack had a road speed of 52 k/h and a cross-country speed of 21 k/h
American M3 Halftracks had a road speed of 74 k/h and cross-country speed of 17 k/h
The in-game cross-country speed is half the road speed. Road speed is converted into hex speed (no of hexes travelled) by dividing by 3, So in Hexes we have a road speed of 24 for the M3 and 18 for the 251, and a cross-country speed of 12 for the M3 and 9 for the 251 but actually looking at the real cross-country speeds for these vehicles M3 should have a cross-country speed of 5 and 251 of 6, rather than the current 12 and 9.
Working backwards M3 has a real cross-country speed of 17 k/h but in-game it is incorrectly doubled to 36 k/h and so is faster cross country than 251 when it should be slower!
This is of course just one example. Because in-game cross-country speed is assumed to be half road speed pretty much every vehicle in the game has the wrong cross country speed. A perusal of http://www.tarrif.net/ shows that cross-country speed is unrelated to road speed. cross-country speed is related to the vehicles weight, suspension, gearing etc.
I think it would be a much lesser sin to give the vehicles the correct cross country speed as they are actually travelling cross country most of the time. We may then have to double the rough speed rather than half the road speed to get road speed. Doubling the rough speed will mostly give lower road speeds but a vehicles rarely travel at full speed anyway.
The problem with this approach is that for a vehicle with a rough speed better than half road speed they will get a too high a road speed.
Using tarrifs site here Ill compare some real and in-game road and crosscountry speeds (in hexes) there is some rounding but Im sure you get the idea.
bren______________real 16 6____in-game 18 9
vickers light_______real 18 13__ in-game 19 9
sherman__________real 13 8____in-game 13 6
T34______________real 18 8____in-game 18 9
protze____________real 23 11___in-game 20 10
opel______________real 28 12___in-game 18 6
German 8 wheeler__real 28 10___in-game 27 14
222______________real 17 9_____in-game 27 13
2.5tonne Mack_____real 24 7____in-game 18 6
M3 HT____________real 24 5____in-game 24 12
251______________real 17 6____in-game 18 9

points to note
Generally tanks cross-country speed is often underrated and wheeled vehicles overrated.
In-game opel seems to have the wrong road speed?

Best Regards Chuck.

[Smersh]

Thats very interesting, I'm all for more accuracy.

but that would require completely reworking and finding sources for hundreds of vehicles.

[chuckfourth]

Hi Smersh.
Rough speeds for hundreds of vehicles are given at http://www.tarrif.net/
You are right implementation would pose some problems that would of course be the designers call. There are of course the vision and stabiliser slots these are pretty much empty for most vehicles.
Best regards Chuck.

[DRG]

Yeah that's great Chuck. One source that doesn't even list the most common Russian artillery piece is the standard source for all your information now?

There are over 3000 vehicles in WinSPww2 in 36 OOB's do you SERIOUSLY think we're going to change the fundamental movement rate for every one of them becasue you're one source that lists cross country speeds has them one or two hexes faster or slower than what we do?

Oh and "There are of course the vision and stabiliser slots these are pretty much empty for most vehicles." Yeah......... so? what about the ones that DO use those slots ?

Here's the short answer. NO chance. Perhaps you might be happier playing "Battleground Europe" ?

Don

[chuckfourth]

Hi Don
Is battleground europe free?
Well just pointing out that in most cases halving road speed is obviously going to give you incorrect cross country speeds I use the tarrif site to illustrate just how wrong the speeds can be using this method. The M3 for example is a little more than one or two hexes out, its 7 hexes out ie its going twice as fast as it should cross country. No doubt there are other similar cases.
Doesnt vision get used on just one tank panther UHU? maybe this vehicle could have its own class and vision becomes a property of that class? that would give you a free slot to add the rough speeds into?
Or
Perhaps rather than cross country speed just being half road speed you could halve it and then adjust it further according to what class the vehicle is?

Best Regards Chuck

[DRG]

chuckfourth said:
Hi Don
Is battleground europe free?
Well just pointing out that in most cases halving road speed is obviously going to give you incorrect cross country speeds I use the tarrif site to illustrate just how wrong the speeds can be using this method. The M3 for example is a little more than one or two hexes out, its 7 hexes out ie its going twice as fast as it should cross country. No doubt there are other similar cases.

SAYS WHO CHUCK???? ONE gaming website and you are basing all of your ideas on that. Find me two other CREDITABLE sources that give the cross country speed for an M3 Halftrack. Good luck. None of the books I have at home list it's cross country speed and none of the websites I checked list it so WHERE did the tarrif site get their info ? In fact, while searching I found FIVE different "road speeds" listed ranging from 61 kph to 88 kph.( 61 / 64.4 / 67.6/ 72 / 88 )Who's right and who's wrong ? 45 MPH is a common road speed given for that vehicle but cross country speed ??....... Where did that ONE website get that info and why do you assume always that if you find info in variance to what we have in the game that your source is correct ?

As for "Is battleground europe free" is it because you can play this game for free the ONLY reason you are here?

Don

[badger45]

Have you ever thought about how is the cross country speed measured? If not, think now! It's absurd to mix data from different sources as your web (cited by you) does. Or do you think that the test conditions where everywehere the same? The same moisture, the same vegetation, the same percentage of uneven terrain, perhaps even the very same terrain? And what about factors like driver (the guy driving)? If you don't know it, it matters. Do you think the driver was the same all the time? These all are reasons, why is the crosscountry speed rarely mentioned and taken seriously. This is why the numbers like kW(hp)/ton or kg/cm2 (pressure on the ground), and so on, are used to give you a picture of crosscountry performance, rather than a single speed number got under unknown and unreplicable test(s). And because this is over too complex and still subject to research of proper mathematic model, you cannot expect the game to model it.

Besides, the difference is randomely distributed and overall insignificant to gameplay. At least to my gameplay.

[chuckfourth]

Hi Don
Fair enough, tarrifs data may all be rubbish but the cross country speeds Ive found elsewhere compare well. Tarriff works at the aberdeen proving ground. So Im guesing that is his source.
I dont assume that "my" source is correct. I am just pointing out that your current approximation for cross country speed (half road speed) gives wheeled vehicles better crosscountry performance than tracked vehicles. The only reason you use expensive tracked vehicles is exactly because they have a better cross country performance than wheeled vehicles.
I play your game because it is the most realistic tactical ww2 sim I know of. I dont like first person shooters.
Best regards Chuck.

[DRG]

chuckfourth said:
Hi Don
Fair enough, tarrifs data may all be rubbish but the cross country speeds Ive found elsewhere compare well. Tarriff works at the aberdeen proving ground. So Im guesing that is his source.

How about sharing some of the sources of those cross country speeds you've found elsewhere???

Don

[Marek_Tucan]

For example I have found "elsewhere" (www.wwiitanks.co.uk) M3 Halftrack (or more precisely M3 75mm GMC) cross-country speed stated at 35mph, which is ca. 56kph. Unfortunately the source doesn't state cross-country speeds for 250 and 251 but given stated roadspeeds (37mph for 250, 33 for 251)... So the sources (and even the very definition of cross-country speed) may and do vary.