Tactics and Correct use of Scouts ?

[PPoS]

Hello, the other day I played a random battle between Canadian (me) and German forces in Normandy 1944. I was supposed to assault the German positions and I decided that I should use some foot-borne scouts to find the german lines before rushing straight into them. I bought a Scout Platoon and went on looking for the Germans, NOTE I moved only 1 Hex/turn so I wouldn't let the Germans spot me first. Guess what happend ? I was slowly advancing my scout platoon, squad by squad, hex by hex, through some pretty heavy forested area on top of some hills. First I stumbeled into some German minefields and luckily I avoided them without casualties, next I was starting to close on a large open field just infront of the hill slope/treeline. At the start of the turn I moved ONE hex, right into the treeline (still in cover by the trees) when suddenly German fire erupted on my squad. Well that was that, all my cover blown, I didn't retreat, istead I picked the German squad off (a VB squad) and continued (dunno why I did this 'cause the next few turns all types of artillery shells hit my scouts).

Now, I kept to the tree line and moved ONE hex at a time all the time, still pretty soon a German SS MG squad fired at me from across the field, my scouts couldn't spot them but they could apparently spot my "stealthy" scouts.
Doesn't trees give you cover ? Doesn't one hex movement equal crawling or the like ? Shouldn't my scouts be able to actually scout out the German static positions before the Germans actually spotted me ? Sure, the first encounter was a German VB squad and surely they are better at spotting than ordinary squads, but still while keeping my troops in cover and moving really slow, the German SS squad could fire at me. Second, my recon mission took me about 60% of the total game turns, this meant that I couldn't finish the game in time. I didn't bring the main forces behind the scouts since I reckon the sound of tank engines will be heard by the enemy. So I kinda missed the whole battle just by trying to find the enemy lines. Do you have to stop you're scouts for one turn and "look" around manually by pressing the right-button in all directions, or do the scouts automatically spot the enemy on the same turn ?

Does anyone have any good hints or a "guide" on how to use scouts most efficiently ? And know the answer to the questions above ?

[PatG]

Under average visibility conditions, most units can see into 1 hex of forest so if you were moving along the tree line - you may not be in full cover. I will generally move 1 hex in from the edge of the woods then do a 1 hex move into the edge to peek around.

Yes it does pay to manually make your scouts look around. If you are really paranoid check each scout several times per turn.

In your purchase phase, look at the map - it will tell you where the enemy FEBA or forward deployment line is. Note a couple of landmarks so you can identify the line later. In an assault, you can usually waltz right up to that line with your whole force without contact (depending on sight lines of course), in a meeting engagement, you will have to be more careful. Scout forward from this line.

To my knowledge, your tanks can't be heard by your opponent so if they are out of sight they are out of earshot.

You were spotted by SS, I believe an earlier thread on spotting 88's discussed the effects of quality and morale on spotting. Basicly higher morale higher quality troops spot better. You would have had better results against Volksgrenadiers. The revers is true too, as your boys get experience sneaky peteing around, they will spot better and be harder to spot - so keep your scouts out of fire fights but remember to grab any easy end game kills to boost their experience.

Do your map recce first and consider where you set up if you were the enemy. Consider too your opponent and the mission and the points value involved. All of this will give you information before you even start. Adjust your plan accordingly. Lead with the scouts to find any surprises but keep your main force reasonably close behind.

Armoured cars, motorcycles and even foot scouts can be used for deep penetration. Use them to chew up his arty park but they are also handy to report on reinforcements moving in his rear areas - turn their range down so they stay hidden. If your oponnent is a low morale nation, kill the HQ if you can find it.

Finally, if you really want to do a full recce, crank up the number of turns.

[narwan]

If the first unit you ran into spotted you (as it did since it fired at you) you were spotted by all german units with a LOS to you. So there may have been units that spotted you but did not fire (out of range for example). If you then stayed in LOS all the time after your first encounter you will have stayed spotted all that time. Being in a tree hex (at edge of the woods) is NOT being out of LOS. You're in it. You can even be still in it if you're one hex deep in the woods.
After a first firefight make absolutely sure you then move the scout into a hex where NO enemy units, including ones you haven't spotted yet, can have a LOS on you.

Also, nine times out of ten the location of the enemy was determined by them firing at you. So it's not really unrealistic. Best way to use scouts in this role is to get them close to probable enemy locations (but not too close, 5 to 10 hexes should do) and put them somewhere with a good clear view (put weapons at range 1). Now move in with something else, if it gets fired on the scout will be in a position to have a good chance of spotting who's doing the firing.

If you're afraid of close range assaults or firing from close range put arty or lot's of area fire on the suspect hexes. It'll force the heads down of the enemy (pin or button them) which will reduce their hit chances and spotting.

Narwan

[chuckfourth]

Hi PPoS
The more of your units that have a particular hex in LOS the more chance you have of seeing the enemy in that hex. But it should be very difficult to sneak up on positions, you are after all moving and the enemy is stationary.
One quibble I have with the game is the bonus morale and experience of scouts. As a corporal (in training) I would usually put the worst soldier on point as you are sure to lose him in a contact because no matter how good he is he wont see what or who gets him.
Im not sure what in-game scouts represent, in my experience they are simply several men from one of the platoons squads rather than a distinct "elite" unit. I think this would warrant them having the same morale and experience as the line unit.
Best Regards Chuck.

[PanzerBob]

Good Day, PPoS

If you are fighting a set piece battle, I would suggest you recruit a few Commando Sections for this task. Remember to set them to min range before they leave. This guys are better suited for this task and if bounced are more likely to be able to handle themselves. Scouts are better suited for picket duty in a set piece battle. They work better as they gain experience in campaigns.

In real life, patrols of this nature are dufficult and not a favoured task of the average Infanteer.

IMHO Cheers, Bob

[RubberNeck]

Because my scout units tend to vaporize at first contact with the enemy, I have changed my way of using them. I no longer probe the enemy positions with them, but instead I find a good vantage point where my scouts can see large portions of the battlefield. Then, when fire erupts from hidden positions my unmoving scout units are often able to spot the firer, even when the unit that was fired on can not.

Dean

[MajorDisaster]

The LOS/spotting thing will run n run I cant really figure what sort of cover trees give you (not a great deal from what I can see), and Ive lost a few scouts that have "stubmled" into tank platoons moving thru dense woods. (I'm pretty sure a tank platoon crunching through trees would be heard by foot scouts more than 50 mtr away.. but I guess that's pretty tricky/undesirable to program in..?) Anyhow, like a few posters have said already, the experience rating seems to be the big thing. If they do survive a few battles, they really can get around without being spotted very easily, (I have got scouts move into adjacent hexes to enemy and not get shot at), it's just pretty tough when they're green. I already got told on here that scouts have no exceptional spotting ability. You got some choices - buy cheapies and use them as "Recon by Death" or buy elite for their extra experience rating, turn range down to "1" and cry a lot if they happen to get spotted & blown away. M'cycles are cool too, but DONT park em up in the open, and they cant see much if theyre running at full throttle.

[badger45]

Scouting during assault is difficult, since you are moving and enemy is dug-in. Given the same experience level, enemy WILL spot you first, at least with his size 0 units (MG nests, panzershreck teams, snipers, VBs and so on). Once you are in range, you will be fired at. And the scouts of 4 or 5 men do not really have good chances to survive one or two such events.

This infers a simple strategy. Move under barrage and scout simultaneously with normal squads WHEN ASSAULTING. Squads will be of course spotted at longer distance (size 1), so you can use your scouts a hex or two before them. If your scouts are attacked first, squads will relieve them a little with fire support, if your squads are attacked first, your scouts have very good chance to reveal position of firing units.

Barrage helps the process a lot. It is a must have. You cannot expect to ambush the enemy head-on. Use for it something which does not make craters, as you don't want to hamper the movement of your units, once you discovered the enemy. If you have a tank or SPA support, HIDDEN behind nearest terrain wave or smoke, the complete assault of position would look like this: 1] scouts advance say 4 hexes after creeping barrage of 76 mm field howitzers or something like this, 2] one or two hexes behind them come the assault squads, 3] if possible, something hard hitting is hidden and prepared to attack with your infantry in one or at most two turns. You may want to separate enemy discovered enemy position by dropping a smoke BEHIND it, to insure zero damage from possible undiscovered AT gun line etc.

Note on barrage: it seems to me, after some testing, that there are two major factors causing suppresion. First and more important is number of shells landing in a hex. Dropping ten or fifteen or more shells in hex almost guarantees enemy retreat/route status, so you can even safely RUN (really, try it) to his position. Of course, you cannot do this all the time, as normally you have rounds for just ten turns. But you can buy more artillery and use half and half. This way you have almost zero casualties. Biggest danger is your own arty (especially if you run) - try to have the fire hexes in LOS of spotter. Repeat - HE kill seems to have NO effect, unless it causes losses. Which is the second factor causing suppression. But under assault, you would have to buy really BIG guns - 203 mm or so (so repeat - to suppress enemy it is better to buy 76 mm than 155 mm gun). And these are pretty slowly firing, thus reducing the suppression from number of shells, making the predictability of the indirect fire pretty low. Moreover they are dangerous to everybody, not only your enemy. I use them though for distant barrage (to route retreating enemies at longer distance from my troops, at least 7 or 8 hexes from scouts) or better independently to destroy something not easily reachable (distant ATG). BTW even if you can drop just five or three shells on hex, you had better to do it. Enemy rate of fire (and consequently the opfire and your losses) decreases (guesstimate) three times the suppression, i.e. if he has suppression 8, his rate of fire will decrease by 24 percent. Compounded with the effect of your supporting fire squads, which add quickly to enemy suppression by firing back at him, you should have no major problem.

Regarding the time spent to advance one hex at a time... This is absolutely not necessary. You know, that enemy cannot be on your half of battlefield, so under smoke or terrain cover you can rush to say hex 52, if the map is 100 hexes wide. If you chose line of advance the enemy expected, you will soon discover him No need to creep twenty hexes or so.

And yes, you have to look around manually. Even after every opfire. And also try different units to look at suspected directions. But the real point is, that you should use artillery, to put yourself in the advantage. Otherwise the enemy will regularly spot you first, regardless of terrain, as you are moving and he is dug-in (reduced ability to be seen, naturally).

Regards,
badger45

[baggypants]

Post deleted by baggypants

[PPoS]

Thx for the good answers y'all. One thing, are there any indication (other than being fired at) that you're scouts, or any other unit, is spotted by the enemy ? In Steel Panthers you could see a "*" on the unit when it was spotted by the enemy.