Suggestion: Mapmove & Armor

[Edi]

This here thread is a suggestion that might get implemented in Dominions 4. I doubt we are going to see much like it via patch because it would alter game mechanics enough that it'd require a fair amount of work from the devs.

Still, I'll toss it out.

Currently, the mapmove attribute is an intrinsic, unalterable part of units. It's set in stone, so to speak, unlike defense, attack and a lot of other things that can be altered by weapons, armor, afflictions and spells. Afaik, the only way to alter mapmove is to put a flying item on a commander (winged boots or flying carpet).

This works fairly well so far, but it can also be a headache from a modding point of view.

I would love it if the different armors in the game had an actual mapmove modifier the same way they have a defense modifier right now. Heavy (body) armor reduces mapmove. So one could make all units of a given type (e.g. Machakans who have mapmove 3 or regular units with mapmove 2, and cavalries with a mapmove of 3) have the same mapmove and depending on what armor they get (e.g. plate hauberks for hoplites), their mapmove would be reduced.

I expect most mapmove modifiers for heavier armors would be -1 and some really heavy armors might have as much as -2, while most light to medium armor would have mapmove modifiers of zero.

Then there are certain exceptions one has to account for, namely undead and constructs that don't eat, sleep or tire and demons and possibly some other creatures who wouldn't much tire either. These would be immune to the mapmove penalty.

The downside, of course, is that the devs or somebody else would have to go through all existing units and armors by hand and do the relevant alterations. Note: This is something I would very much like to see, but do not expect because of the amount of work involved. But I'd love to have it in any case, because similarly to the resource cost of weapons and armor issue, it would increase automation from the development, modding and other points of view once the work was done once. So if not now, in Dominions 4, perhaps?

And while we're talking about weapons and armor: Could we please have the resource costs as visible attributes the same way that attack, defense, length, protection and encumbrance are currently? Pretty please?

Edi

[Arralen]

Superfluos, and consciously decided against by the devs as far as I understood.

1) Armor is intrinsic to units. You can't change an units armor ingame.
And if you mod the armor, you can mod the mapmove as well.

2) Commanders are thought to have some sort of "improved means of transportation" available - they don't have to carry their armor themselves (unless they go into battle, that is, oc.)

3) Why should armor reduce mapmove? Troops marching in friendly territory would do so without or with reduced armor. Troops in enemy territory or crossing the border move only 1 province per turn in Dom anyway.

[Edi]

From that point of view, I suppose it makes sense. I don't have the presumption to assume that all the things I might suggest would automatically be good.

I'd still like to see the rescosts as visible attributes, though. Right now trying to calculate rescosts from the units is driving me insane.

Edi

[Endoperez]

Res costs are affected by size. Arralen tested (some? all?) of them a while ago. Ask him for details.

[HoneyBadger]

You might not be able to improve a unit's mapmove based on the armor it wears, but, you might be able to add elite units which could travel farther simply because they've been trained for speed and stamina over long distances. I'm thinking this would be great for a late-era Machaka (Zulu reference) and middle-era Mictlan (with the superb but narrow paths and system of messengers used by-if I remember correctly-the Inca). One of the reasons it can't be assumed that weight-of-arms will be a major factor in the speed a unit travels is that humans, atleast, can readily carry 70lbs over indeterminate distances starting at 20 miles, and in the military many soldiers regularly do just that, while people who are fat and out of shape like yours truly could probably sprint 30 yards before dropping dead in a suit of high gothic style armor, or nekkid. I'd also like to add that, if we can alter the mapmoves at some point, I'd like an option to make it based on Dominion and based on scales. An orderly kingdom like the Incas would be able to build, maintain, and use the footpaths mentioned in their own dominion, and I could see such units as Jotuns or Late Age Atlantis using dogsleds in the snow. Maybe even a Late Age Abyssia where other Abyssians have followed in the footsteps of the Demonbred and ride the thermals produced in their dominion on hang-gliders. Maybe Death rides on swift wings in a late age Ermor or C'tis. I think a lot of special things could be modified by scales, making nations a little bit more like I understand the concept of "themes" (and while I'm not promoting bringing themes back-I've never had them, so how can I miss them? I do think it's a shame that scales don't have more than just a numerical effect on the game, while having different levels of magic ofcourse gives you cool things like powerful spells to cast and blessings-the coolest thing about scales right now is that they might, possibly, maybe, be linked to the effects of good and bad luck-that and it's visually fun to move them back and forth ), this is just one example of how to bring scales back.

[Wick]

I'm with Edi on this, even, I suppose, to the concession that it's not genuinely important. Still, the intrinsic argument doesn't apply to commanders and any unit can be GOR'd. The alternative methods argument doesn't explain things like a Tribal Chief wearing Black Steel from head to toe and still having a 3 move (the poor pony!). As for why armor should reduce move, how about consistency? The existing correlation between Move and Enc is obvious.

This is a nice to have and belongs on the Dom 4 wishlist more then a lot of things that will be there!

[HoneyBadger]

Yes, but you see, that's not the answer, because that same tribal chief is going to use another "poor pony" to carry his armor, and quite possibly a sword-bearer to carry his weapons. The heavy black steel full plate is only going to be worn when battle is expected, or for the may day parade. The rest of the time, the chief's probably going to be wearing brigandine, or just riding leathers. He might wear heavy armor at home, and he might even wear it when he's sitting around the camp-fire or inspecting the troops, so you can shrug off assassination attempts, but he's not going to wear it on 75 mile rides, because that's how you lose ponies. The only time it MIGHT be worn on long rides is if the chief had 5 or 6 ponies and cound switch them out regularly every couple of miles.

[Endoperez]

Hypaspists of Arcoscephale (MA/LA) are trained to march in heavy armor, and hav mapmove of 2. Their armor is still lighter than that of Hoplites, though.

Machakans already have more endurance than other humans. They have base encumberance of just 2! All other humans and most non-humans have base encumberance of at least 3.

Almost all undead and constructs have mapmove 3 in addition to their encumberance 0. They gonna march all day and night and more (for they are the slaves of dark lord's law). Those carnivore lizards C'tis has enslaved (Slave Warriors and Elite Warriors) both have mapmove 2, besides the latter wearing armor. I guess that explains the Taskmasters' whips... Actually, giving the slave lizards and the taskmaster mapmove 3 would give them a real niche, as only the Taskmasters could utilize the mapmove 3 lizards to their full extent (all other C'tissian commanders have mapmove of 2).

[Edi]

Endoperez said:
Res costs are affected by size. Arralen tested (some? all?) of them a while ago. Ask him for details.

Is that all rescosts? As in, weapon #6, shortsword, costs 2 resources for a size 2, human unit (as well as size 1 units like hoburgs), but does it cost more for cavalry? And the same thing for armors. A larger armor rescost would be logical, a war troll is much larger than an average human, hence needs more chainmail. The different sized units already have different base resourcecosts, and I'm actually trying to find that out as well as the rescosts for the weapons and armor.

If anyone has any information on the ressize multipliers or other mechanics, that'd be greatly appreciated. Arralen?

Edi