CS Cruiser Tanks Ammo loadout

chuckfourth · #1 August 3rd, 2006, 06:45 AM

Hello
I have been reading the manual for the atomic game "Crusader" wich mentions that the A9, A10, A13 CS tanks 3.7 inch howitzer could only fire smoke! not HE as currently modelled in the game.
Looking on the internet I found,
From this site
http://www.btinternet.com/~ian.a.pat...rmourtanks.htm
For the A9
"To fulfill this role the CS (Close Support) version was developed, with a 3.7-in Howitzer replacing the 2-pdr, it could fire a 4.77kg smoke shell instead. An HE shell was also produced, but was in short supply in North Africa. When 3 RTR went to Calais in May 1940, they got there only to find that the HE shells, for their A9 CS tanks, had been left on the dockside in the UK."
For the A10
As with the A9 a CS (Close Support) version was developed in parallel with the main tank. It was armed with a 3.7-in Mortar (Howitzer) OQF MK I, which was a single shot weapon and could only fire smoke. In battle the CS versions would accompany the Squadron Headquarters of the tank regiment protecting the gun tanks with smoke screens for them to manoeuvre. Only 30 CS versions were built.
For the A13
The CS version, of the A13 MK IV, was again fitted with a 3.7-in Mortar (Howitzer) OQF MK I which was a single shot weapon and could only fire smoke. This was rapidly becoming a disadvantage and this was the last tank to be fitted with it.
This Site goes on to detail that the A13 Mk II CS didnt have MGs.
http://www.wwiivehicles.com/unitedki...ser/mk_iv.html
From
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruiser_Mk_I
A9
"Had a 3.7" (94mm) howitzer installed in the turret. This gun only fired smoke rounds, 40 of which were carried."
From
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruiser_Mk_II
THE A10
"Had a 3.7" (94 mm) howitzer in the turret instead of the 2 pdr. The standard ammunition load was 40 rounds smoke, and a few HE shells"

I wonder if these 3 tanks could have their ammo loadouts changed from HE to Smoke?
Regards Chuck.

PDF · #2 August 3rd, 2006, 08:14 AM

What a devious idea, tanks firing smoke only .. Typically British, isn't it ?

I also read the history of the Matilda MkI, which was to cost so much that in the end the tank was just armed with a single MG

Mobhack · #3 August 3rd, 2006, 12:14 PM

Well - the SP game engine does not model smoke as a separate ammo type. (mentioned in the Mobhack help somewhere I think?). Smoke in SP is generated as an extra data item in the unit generation code. A few smoke shells are given, depending on unit class (A CS tank unit class element will have a few more than average). Smoke shells are treated as smoke grenades (if infantry) or shells with the range of the slot 1 weapon, if vehicles, added as a unit creation extra data item to an generated unit (it is not OOB data). A unit in a scenario can therefore have the smoke ammo amount modified as it is now created in the game.

But not in an OOB as it does not exist in the unit template data as a separate item. Thus - the units cannot be loaded with smoke only in the OOB.

Therefore, the UK CS tanks have had HE ammo (which existed - as already stated in your quotations - therefore could be loaded in the vehicle ), issued to them since I think, the SP1 days. That makes the units (marginally) useful in the game - otherwise they would have the MGs only, and maybe 6-8 randomly isued smoke shells on unit creation depending on what unit class the element was based on.

Cheers
Andy

chuckfourth · #4 August 4th, 2006, 06:09 AM

Hi PDF
I guess if your fielding tanks with poor quality paper thin armour specifically designed to maximise shot traps a few CS tanks with smoke is a virtual necessity

But all jokes aside it is a pity the correct ammo loadout is hard to model. For those that dont like smoke it shows how inmportant it really is. A tiny armoured force equipped with these early cruisers and there CS smoke belching support managed to sweep the Italians clean out or north africa.
Got to say the matila I is certainly one of my favourites, what a spectacular looking piece of machinery with all that exposed running gear and tracks. Looks funny but I guess still pretty unpleasent when it trundles up to your trench dealing death. Not to mention the shock value of being unable to dent the bl##dy thing.
Best Regards Chuck

chuckfourth · #5 August 4th, 2006, 06:27 AM

Hi Andy
Actually it seems a shame to give this vehicle the a-historic HE loadout, I say this because these early cruiser squadrons are equipped with the non-HE firing 2 pdr guns. So actually these squadrons have a large tactical hole in them, being that they can't engage AT guns outside of MG range. So giving the CS tanks HE instead of the correct smoke very neatly and very a-historically plugs this hole, making these units a balanced formation when in fact they wernt.
I wonder, could these tanks be given there own class so that they can have their correct ammo loadout of smoke?
Maybe Im not the only one in the forum that enjoys the challenge of playing an unbalanced formation?
Best Regards Chuck.

thatguy96 · #6 August 4th, 2006, 11:26 AM

The CS tank class already allows for additional "smoke" shots, but I don't think there's any way without a massive modification to the engine to get smoke into the basic ammo loadout.

DRG · #7 August 4th, 2006, 05:18 PM

There isn't and we're not going to.

Don

chuckfourth · #8 August 5th, 2006, 05:28 AM

Hi Don
Ok subject closed, But I would have thought that if you created a new class for these 3 vehicles you could then give them 40 or so "generated" smoke rounds using the same method that currently gives just a few. Then you could remove all but a few HE in the unit template.
By the way looking at my references in my origional post it seems the A13 CS should have its MGs removed.
Best regards Chuck.

DRG · #9 August 5th, 2006, 08:52 AM

There is a limit to the number of classes we can put into the game and that limit has been reached.

Don

Mobhack · #10 August 5th, 2006, 11:40 AM

also - if we made a special UK CS tank class, someone would
- Use that in another OOB for other things it was not intended for
- Write in complaining that the UK CS tanks have no ammo for thier howitzers!! in mobhack (not realising that the smoke comes from the initialisation code for the unit class)..

What we have now is a useful game-engine compromise for a minority unit (2 per cruiser squadron in the early war only), and also allows for the later 95mm support tanks as well utilising the same unit classes.

Cheers
Andy