Counter Intelligence

Omega · #1 May 2nd, 2001, 05:15 AM

How exactly does counter intelligence work? Why is it so expensive?

Way back in the 0.51 demo, it did not cost very much. Just look at the screen image in the HTML help. It lists the cost of counter intelligence at 5000, 10,000 and 15,000 for levels 1, 2 and 3 respectively. Now the costs are 100,000, 250,000, and 500,000.

What caused this extreme increase in the cost of counter intelligence? What are the ramifications of changing it back to the old values?

The description for counter intelligence states: �Counter-Intelligence will prevent attacks while it is in progress.�

Does this mean that if it takes my empire 100 years to complete counter intelligence level one, that I am covered for all 100 years? That doesn�t sound right�

Can anyone explain all this?

Phoenix-D · #2 May 2nd, 2001, 05:40 AM

As I understand it, it works something like this:

Counter intel acrues points. If it gets to finished without an enemy intel op, it "fails".

If an enemy intel operation comes in, there's a check done. If your counter-intel project(s) have as many or more points as the enemy project took, they have a chance (maybe 100%, not sure) to block the project. If your counter intel has less built up, the enemy project succeeds with no impact on your project.

Phoenix-D

Aussie Gamer · #3 May 2nd, 2001, 07:11 AM

The way I thought that it worked was pretty similar to you Phoenix-D except that if the enemies was going to work it was used up and defeats that one attack going back to the start.

It blocks whilst building if they fail in the attack then is used when you fail to block the attack.

I most likely am wrong though!!!

Magus38 · #4 May 2nd, 2001, 12:46 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Phoenix-D:

Counter intel acrues points. If it gets to finished without an enemy intel op, it "fails".

If an enemy intel operation comes in, there's a check done. If your counter-intel project(s) have as many or more points as the enemy project took, they have a chance (maybe 100%, not sure) to block the project. If your counter intel has less built up, the enemy project succeeds with no impact on your project.

Phoenix-D

I agree with the above, I started quite a thread on the subject a while ago, you might find more information in there.

One thing I must add to the above description is that if Counter Intelligence III blocks an attack, that fact alone does not reset the project. I believe, and experiments have borne this out, that for each level of CI you can block one attack, utilizing the calculation described above (i.e. points invested on both sides are evaluated against each other). I have come to this conclusion watching the progress of several different CI projects of the same level. Example:

Three CI III projects launched simultaneously in an intelligence environment where you are frequently subject to attack. Despite the fact that "Divide all points equally between projects" was selected, it is observed that the three projects still advance unevenly. Moreover the discrepancy is not slight; suddenly one project leaps ahead of the others, in the case of CI III, by a third of its' value.

To conclude, CI II and CI III are superior to CI I in two respects. Firstly, their longer duration allows for greater accumulation of intel points contributing to their ability to block the more serious attacks. Secondly, for each level you have attained in CI you can block one additional project, assuming there is room in the project to do so (meaning that if a project is nearly completed so that, in the case of CI III, advancing it by 1/3 will complete it, then the next turn it will be completed.)

Assuming that I have properly understood CI, I must say it is a very elegant mechanism.

Dr Strangelove · #5 May 3rd, 2001, 11:56 PM

Ahhh, so that's how it works! Thank you very much, I was just about to start a thread requesting clarification on the function of the Counter-Intelligence projects.

PsychoTechFreak · #6 May 4th, 2001, 11:32 PM

Dr. S., Magus38, if you really understand CI - lucky you...

I still have some doubts, does CI really function properly ?

quote:
Originally posted by Magus38:
... I started quite a thread on the subject a while ago, you might find more information in there.

Link: http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/For...ML/002184.html

quote:
Originally posted by Magus38:
... for each level of CI you can block one attack...

I don't think so. My test: CI level 1 accumulated 80,000 CI points defeated 16 (!) little Intel attacks (5,000 points each)

quote:
Originally posted by Magus38:
... Despite the fact that "Divide all points equally between projects" was selected, it is observed that the three projects still advance unevenly. Moreover the discrepancy is not slight; suddenly one project leaps ahead of the others, in the case of CI III, by a third of its' value.

...and I think the sudden leap ahead includes a severe bug ! The points which "fill" the project are mostly not produced by your intel facilities.

I have done an extreme test about that, again (see your other thread, link above):

Empire A has one little Intel 1 facility (produces about 650 intel points per turn) and starts 12 CI level III projects, points evenly divided. Normally it would take about 950 years to complete one of these projects (see attached picture 1).

Every 10th turn Empire B spits in a little Intel attack (5,000 points). In some turns (I have observed this with the 2nd attack) you will see a sudden leap ahead in some of the projects (see picture 2). These CI points are not produced by your little Intel I facility, but you can use these points to counter other severe Intel attacks later on. I don't think this was intended.

I hope I haven't increased the confusion, but I haven't got an answer to these phenomenons yet. If you can help me, pleeeeeeaaaaaaaase enlighten me...

PsychoTechFreak · #7 May 5th, 2001, 12:45 AM

quote:
Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:
... In some turns (I have observed this with the 2nd attack) you will see a sudden leap ahead in some of the projects...

I guess that in some cases the CI project was intended to be completed if it counters an attack. Maybe Aaron (forgive me) wanted to do this with an addition of let's say 500,000 points (or a million), which could be enough if you have just one or two CI projects. But with 12 CI level III projects you need to add 6 million points..., otherwise they are distributed to the other projects...

Omega · #8 May 5th, 2001, 11:35 AM

After reading all of the replies to my question, I am now sure that turning off intelligence projects in my current game was a good decision!

The documentation should contain a detailed explanation of how counter intelligence works. The documentation is almost completely useless!

Thanks to all who responded.

PsychoTechFreak · #9 May 5th, 2001, 06:18 PM

Turning off Intel is the best, that's my conclusion also. In the meantime I have tried several ways to find a workaround (turn off divide pts evenly and such) w/o success.

It's impossible to use CI without this kind of semi-cheating, maybe... if you just use one single CI project, but who is brave enough to rely on it. The CI calculation definetely needs to be reviewed, I also refuse to use Intel until it's fixed, it's a pity...

Daynarr · #10 May 5th, 2001, 06:56 PM

Also, it would be a good idea if you guys could send a mail to MM with complete description of the problem and couple of games as and example. It will help a lot in fixing this problem.