Tactical CS?

[thatguy96]

Now this may sound crazy, and totally worthless in game, but a quick experiment might have just proved it to be a viable idea.

I just deleted the HE Pen and HEK values from a cluster munition (in fact all values except Weapon Class, Accuracy, Weapon Size, Warhead Size, and Range were 0), and then tested it on infantry sheltered in buildings and exposed on open terrain. The result was heavily suppressed infantry with 0 casualties inflicted.

Firstly I would ask whether people just think that this is an instance where my aircraft failed to kill anyone with the munition (though it is obvious that the occupied hexes were hit). Also in this vein would be the question about whether further increasing the warhead size would in fact cause a weapon with 0 HE Pen and 0 HEK to actually kill infantry, and perhaps more importantly, would this have the same effect on armored vehicles?

Secondly, and more interestingly, if the warhead size could be increased and the HE Pen and HEK values left at 0 (along with any other damage causing variables), would it be possible to create a weapon that simply induces retreat or pins forces down without killing anyone? This would allow tactical CS weapons to be modeled in game with a relative accuracy.

I'm just curious because in working on making the OOBs more comprehensive for the conflict in South East Asia, I've found in the research that tactical CS (and similar irritants) weapons were employed to a great extent by US forces and in select cases by the South Vietnamese. Like I said, this was all just a thought that I just tested out, albeit in a very crude fashion.

[PlasmaKrab]

*Listy? You still around? *

A range of non-lethal weapons had already been tested in some experimental OOBs that should still stick to a thread somewhere in here.

IIRC, from the few tests I ran, even with 0 HEK and 0 WHS there tended to be some few casualties, but since no one said that casualties were supposed to be KIA (could as well be people stunned or choking their lungs out enough to be unfit for further combat), that is OK in some regard.

Now IIRC again, the official view on all this was that "non-lethal weapons had nothing to do in a tactical military-only wargame" (quoting from (lack of) memory ).
Besides, you should notice that the game engine isn't designed for representing such weapons.
That previous discussion had occured before the latest versions of the game were around, so maybe there have been enough changes for it to be viablee after all, you never know.

Side note: Run some more tests (preferably with leg peacekeeping units) and if I'm not too much mistaken you should notice that CS weapons and the like are bloody useless against even a slightly motivated enemy, since they will fall back when hit and pop up again minutes after, again and again... and it's not going to stop as long as you don't kill anyone!

[thatguy96]

Do you think that it would be possible to crank the numbers up sufficiently that the weapon still wouldn't kill but would actually have a lasting effect? Like put more highly motivated troops into a more serious retreat and simply disperse troops with low morale ratings?

[Listy]

yeah I'm still about.

It even worked quite well. especialy Rubber batton guns Etc.

[PlasmaKrab]

IIRC what was used for a lasting effect comparable to tear gas canisters and so on, was to put these CS weapons to a Flame or Napalm weapon class.
This means that the targetted hex will be set on fire, and that the targetted inf unit or others will suffer heavier suppression when attempting to cross it.

You should try raising the WHS rating, maybe that would give you more smoke/crater effect and therefore more lasting area damage, in a way, but I doubt that you can raise the unit suppression without actually raising the kill rate.

[Listy]

CS where napalm weapons, as that slaps massive suppression numbers on the target, and as Plasma says it leaves a lasting effect that spews smoke down range.

The batton round guns where Large cal guns with a huge Warhead and weapon size but a HEK of 0.

[Mustang]

As long as the unit you are attacking has a very low rally rating (or even a rally rating of 0), this CS idea works because the target never recovers from the supression. This is realistic. Tear gas will wear off after several minutes. As each MBT turn is three minutes, it wouldn't be ridiculous if a unit recovered from the effects of the CS after 2 or so turns.

[thatguy96]

Well CS is relatively persistant, which is why it was developed over CN which is not. CN was also often combined with DM to get a more immediate effect that would be harder to recover from in a short span. The napalm idea is good because it leaves a lasting effect on the hexes, and because most riot-control gas weapons work by either bursting or burning the filler, the resulting fire it not completely ridiuclous.

There seems to be a general concensus that this can be done. However, does it seem plausible that people would use units from a modified OOB that had weapons that didn't kill people with any consistancy? Or would this just be something for scenario designers? I guess that would be interesting, militants besiege a group of peace-keepers and you have to race to their aid because of the fact that they don't have a large number of lethal weapons, or some such situation.

Also, Listy, what weapons did you model beyond the the baton gun (that seems to be relatively obvious, I'm guessing that was supposed to be a 37mm launcher of some sort)? The weapons I were thinking of for this kind of thing would be hand grenades, 2.75" rockets, and CBUs. I guess one could also attempt to model the XM96 rocket for the XM191 and M202 66mm launchers.

Listy would it be possible to post the data or send me the OOBs so I could see where people were the last time this was looked at?

[Listy]

My UK OOB on here, somewhere has baton guns in some squads.

I think I had them in COIN patrols of 2x Snatch rover 2x 4 man squads with a baton gun. I also did a senario, based on a story a friend told me from Iraq, to show off the unit. However the AI movement routines, or lack there of, scuppered that senario.

It had a large angry mob surrounding a pair of broken down vehicles carrying contractors. A Pair of Snatch rovers where sent in to get them out, then they came under attack from armed badies.

The Idea was that you had to have iorn control over your weapons, only useing the baton gun on area fire to disperse the crowd alowing you to push in to pick up the contractors. if you left your weapons switched on, then you'd have a massaacre on your hands...

The CS was along long time ago, even maybe shown in an OOB posted on the old yahoo groups.

I did Get Sheilder and JP233 working just fine though!

[thatguy96]

Okay, so after some quick tests it appears I can get away without killing anyone. The napalm weapon class does supress well, but unless damage is done to the infantry, it is impossible to do anything more than pin them down.

Jacking up the WHS above 50 ensures that any infantry caught in the open by a direct hit will suffer between 1-5 casualties, while WHS of 50 ensures that units directly hit in the open will suffer between 1-2 casualties. Increasing WS only serves to increase casualties, so that was left at 1, which is the WS for Napalm tanks anyhow. Units suffering casulties of any number 1 or 5 went into immediate retreat or were routed, so it does do what its supposed to on that front.

Weapon that was attempting to be modeled was the BLU-52/B CS-2 tank, and was dropped from F-100D Super Sabres, in the US Army OOB.