Machaka in CB

[halfzware]

I was a big fan of Machaka, until I played MP and really analysed the game. Its not exactly that they're bad, its that they aren't good when you compare them to just about any other race. Lets begin with the biggest problem: black hunters.

I discussed this with a couple people in the multiplayer irc room, but I wanted to lay out the case properly here. Black hunter stats (initial form) are as follows:
HP: 13, Pro: 22, MR:11, Mor:14, Str:11, Att: 12, Def: 10, MV:20

CB takes a step in the right direction and at least gives them lances. But the fact of the matter is that these stats in no way justify a 125 gold cost. They have 3 attacks, but with an att of 12 they don't hit enough. With a def of 10, they get hit plenty, and with only 13 hp they need to rely completely on their 22 protection for any kind of use. They also have a size 6 which means they can get ganged up on in a serious way.

At 125 gold, they're (I believe) the second most expensive national unit - to the hydra (at 250 gold). Lets compare these to other units with the same exact effects - machaka spider knights for instance, 45 gold (non-sacred).

Stats are as follows:
HP: 12, Pro: 18, Mor: 11, MR: 10, Att: 11, Def: 13

For 45 gold, nearly 1/3 the cost you get a unit that has better defense, 1 point lower attack, and 4 points lower protection.

But you also get 4 attacks - one being web spit which actually hits (since its an area attack unlike the black spider bite).

Counting recruitment cost alone - 3 spider knights will at all times be superior to 1 black hunter. In upkeep cost, two spider knights will again be superior to 1 black hunter.

Now lets take a look at a different race completely and compare: Pyth (Serpent Cult) has Serpent Cataphracts, these like the machaka spiders also get a mount that fights when its rider dies, and the mount rocks (22 protection (although maybe that was with e9 bless)) and has a similar amount of HP I think ~45.

The Serpent Cataphracts base stats are as follows:
HP: 12, Pro: 18, Mor: 12, MR: 10, Str: 12, Att: 12, Def: 14.

They are sacred and have a 52 gold cost (and a massive 58 resource cost - but for now we focus on gold).

The base stats on the serpent cataphract are nearly equal to the hunter spider - you lose 4 pro, but gain 2 str, 2 att, and 4 def. At least they're comperable.

The problem is that they're ~40% the cost. Less than half. They are resource expensive, and that is some kind of balance. But all things considered at 52 gold a piece, they're decent units. Py SC also has access to two different kinds of hydra (which I believe are seriously underrated and at cost so wildly outpace hunter spiders as to be laughable).

The only sacred unit that might be close to as bad is the Knight of the Chalice, at 90 gold who gets no second form. Its initial form though is much better rounded, and more importantly Mar gets flagellants which gives the bless strategy seeker flexability - IE: he can spam flagellants early, then when he needs something with survivability and punch can take KoCs.

And that leads us to my final problem with Black Hunters, bless strategies require very bad scales - in order to make up for those awful scales early - you need to be able to expand very quickly in the early game. With only one sacred unit available to Machaka, at 125 gold a piece - you cannot field groups of black hunters larger than 4 in the early game. And a group of 4 black hunters has neither the survivability nor punch needed to justify 500 gold in the very early game.

Thats my case against machaka spiders. Here are my suggestions on making them better for CB 5.3:

First, make spider knights sacred. This gives machaka a little bit more flexability, and allows a bless strategy to field enough of them early to be effective. The cost for a spider knight should increase as appropriate to somewhere between 50-60 (they have worse stats than serp cataphract which cost 52).

Second, instead of reducing the cost of the Black Hunter - buff him till he's worth it. Through a change in equipment or base stats, increase his defense to 14-16, str to 12-13, and attack to ~14. Or a less radical buff with a cost decrease.

Lastly, Javelins. Even with the hefty CB cost reduction they aren't worth it. They simply never hit. I would suggest increasing cost to javelin infantry by 1-2 across the board, and buffing the precision to 0 (perhaps with a -1 dmg to justify the still low cost). Cherry's Recruitable Rebalance takes this approach to javelins which gives them an excellent niche, and makes them effective against lightly armed troops when used in conjunction with other troops, which is as it should be.


After all that, I should note that I am pretty new to MP, and its possible I'm wrong about all this - and just haven't used black hunters correctly. . . doubtful, but possible

[Endoperez]

I think you named the thread wrong. You don't have problems with Machaka, but with Black Hunters. In that I can agree with you. Black Hunters are very expensive, the first form isn't worth the cost, and sacred warriors shouldn't be required to die before they are worth their cost... except as a Marignon theme! Undead flagellants! (Not very probable, though!)

[NTJedi]

I almost never use the black hunters until I have lots of gold stored up or coming into my kingdom. And when I do use them I make sure they travel with some strong mages to provide increased bonuses for their survival.

Also the rider of the black hunter is not that useful... it's the huge spider which lives a much longer time afterwards. Yet as mentioned earlier these only appear Mid and Late game for my armies.

[Morkilus]

I (the player) felt Fear for my units when I first saw the black hunter... then disappointment as he couldn't really do anything. NTJedi, do you actually find them useful when they are buffed, or would other high-protection units do just as well?

[halfzware]

thats exactly the thing - they LOOK amazing, but the best thing about them is their sprite.

EDIT: the problem with the second form is that its crappy. A single attack, moderate protection and 55hp. Not to mention any bless effects which are good for the spider suck for the rider, and vice versa. You are paying a huge premium for something that doesn't really help. If the warriors could dismount during combat and you had both units fighting seperate then they'd be a fair deal (125 for two units at 60 a pop) - but when you get in a situation where the rider dies, often its a situation where having the spider come next doesn't really help.

and again - the serpent cataphracts are almost exactly the same unit as the black spider for 75 less gold per pop.

[Arralen]

It's the old problem with the gold cost, unit stats and mounts. In general, you pay somewhat for getting a mounted unit. With some units, you pay for a unit with double hitpoints (1st and 2nd form), but as you only get them one after the other, price increase isn't that big. (=> Mictlan animal warriors, Serpent Cataphracts)

But with the Black Hunters, you basically pay as if you had a 12+45HP, size 6 unit with 4 attacks and poison resistance all time long, not only after the rider dies and you're left with an afflicted spider.

There's one exception, though: Jotunheims Moose Riders. Instead of 2x 8HP, they get about 45 HP - from the Moose.

So there are 2 alternatives:
Price the Black Hunters similar to other nations 2-form blessable units.
Or add a %tage of the mounts HP to the first form. E.g. a knight might get +5..+7 from the horse, the Black Hunters would get +20HP. Some mounts hitpoints might be difficult to figure out, maybe +5HP per point of size the mounted unit is bigger than the unmounted rider would be as a general rule (what would not acount for exceptionally sturdy or fragile mounts, though)

HP values might be off somewhat, I'm too lazy to look them up, and I don't know them by heart. hmmm, should I ?

[Saber Cherry]

I don't think there's a problem... have you ever tried using Black Hunters with N9 + E9, W9, or F9? They are weak against MR saves (in the default game)... and otherwise ungodly powerful.

Nothing else is similar. Hydras are not sacred, as sacred hydras require a very weak theme. So for the same gold and half the upkeep, you can pit two double-9 blessed spiders against a hydra... and you'll win.

And I could be wrong... but I thought the only mounts that stay with you after the rider dies (and after the battle ends) were Black Spiders and Gryphons. Units that fight a little then run away don't concern me.

Arralen:
But with the Black Hunters, you basically pay as if you had a 12+45HP, size 6 unit with 4 attacks and poison resistance all time long, not only after the rider dies and you're left with an afflicted spider.

They are not afflicted... the second form is pristine when the rider dies, IIRC. And with the usual nature bless, they are already poison-immune (or resistant?)


Essentially, you're approaching the 'problem' from the wrong angle. Black Hunters, like many sacred units, may be worthless without a strong bless... but strong blesses exist, so you have to compare them BLESSED. Marignon, Ulm, Man and Abysia also have units that benefit from Nature-9 blessing, but... only Black Hunters (of the four) regenerate a useful amount of health, or gain a useful amount of protection (having natural rather than metal armor). Unless countered by MR-save spells, Black Hunters / Spiders with a strong 99 bless can wipe out much more expensive armies easily. Not to mention that Spiders are upkeep-free in the base game (IIRC).

Try playing a game against some AIs on impossible, using nothing but N9F9 or N9E9 Black Hunters... and some support mages.

[halfzware]

Two quick notes:

I'm not saying that black hunters suck per say. I'm sure that with a F9 bless, in the late game, you can field 30 of them and have it be an effective force.

But if you are at a point in the game where gold still has real value to you - then black spiders simply are not worth the cost. In fact I'll make this bold statement to put things in perspective:

Spider Knights are better at cost. Even unblessed.

At 45 gold each, you can field ~14 of them for the cost of 5 black hunters. And I guarentee you 14 spider knights will win, even with F9W9. Not only would 14 spider knights beat 5 black hunters head to head but more importantly they will also do better vs a variety of units: all the way up from independants to thugs, and summons.

At worst, the black hunter is about equal to a knight, (although in a 1v1 I think the knight will probably win if it gets the first hit) so obviously they aren't that bad. What they are is: not worth their cost.

I'm not anywhere near suggesting a 20hp buff (which I think would push their cost past gold and into gems), what I'm suggesting is to raise their attack to around 14, their defense to around 14-16, their strength to 12, with a 5-20 gold cost reduction. Which at least makes their initial form effective.

But still, an E9N9 bless on a black hunter seems sorta weak. The berserk is basically guarenteeing the death of the rider, once dead E9N9 basically gives you a weak troll. So you're taking awful scales so you can afford a double 9 bless for what is effectivly 120 gold for a 50 gold knight that when dies turns into a 60 gold troll.

I can't see how thats worth while.

[Daynarr]

I agree with Saber Cherry 100%. Hunters need strong bless to be effective and worth the cost. If you put points in, for example, F9 N9 blessing they get so powerful that 125 seems cheap. The fact that mount stays after rider dies also justifies their cost. I've been playing Machaka a lot on both SP and MP (in fact they are my favorite) and always have been using black hunters to great effect. Besides, hunters are troops you will be buying in late MP game when SC's rule, and for troops that is rare occurrence.

The rest of the troops actually balance hunters even more. They are CHEAP and designed for single purpose in mind so nearly every troop (except Machaka militia) has a use and is inexpensive.

[Saber Cherry]

halfzware said:
But if you are at a point in the game where gold still has real value to you - then black spiders simply are not worth the cost. In fact I'll make this bold statement to put things in perspective:

Spider Knights are better at cost. Even unblessed.

At 45 gold each, you can field ~14 of them for the cost of 5 black hunters. And I guarentee you 14 spider knights will win, even with F9W9. Not only would 14 spider knights beat 5 black hunters head to head but more importantly they will also do better vs a variety of units: all the way up from independants to thugs, and summons.

...no, sorry. That's just wrong, IMO. Ignoring the fact that the resource and upkeep costs are totally different, the Black Hunters (N9F9, not F9W9) would still win.

But still, an E9N9 bless on a black hunter seems sorta weak.

It allows a small group of them to ride over virtually all indies with no losses - at the beginning of the game, when you have no good magic spells for your mages. You're not weighting protection heavily enough in your calculations - almost nothing can hurt them!

The berserk is basically guarenteeing the death of the rider

How? I don't follow. Berserk adds protection, making them even more invulnerable, and keeping them from retreating like a small party of Spider Knights would do.

once dead E9N9 basically gives you a weak troll.

A weak troll? With more hitpoints, berserk +3, no upkeep, lethal poison, magical flaming weapons and a high attack (or reinvigoration and additional protection)? Maybe you mean "Stronger and better than a troll in every way."

So you're taking awful scales so you can afford a double 9 bless for what is effectivly 120 gold for a 50 gold knight that when dies turns into a 60 gold troll.

Well... perhaps you've never seen them used effectively. Hunter Spiders make Machaka tie with Neifelheim as the easiest nations for a total beginner to play and destroy the AI with (N9E9 bless in each case), simply because each nation has a "Ultra Power Troop".

Before deciding that they are massively underpowered, try a quick game against some AI opponents, as I suggested... unless the enemy has access to MR-save (or very strong armor-negating) magic, it's an easy victory while really only building Black Hunters. Which other nations can do that? I don't believe you will keep your opinion after testing them, or being on the receiving end in multiplayer.