Tank damage model

[Zipuli]

Hello!

Is there going to be a change in the tank damage model in future releases?

I don't mean millimetre accurate armour values with slopes, because it's unrealistic to think that someone would find them all out. And of course it wouldn't make a change in the playability.

I mean make tanks a bit more vulnerable to hits. I don't mean more penetrations, but I mean less ricochets:

There are tons of equipment in the tanks that can be knocked out with even smaller weapons that can affect the tanks fighting ability severely.
For example a Leo 2A4 gets hit by long burst of 30mm AC from say BMP-2. Most likely the Leo will survive and there are no penetrations (except for tracks?), but there is very high propability that some of the optical gadgets get damage. For example the gunners sight EMES might get a beating. Then the smoke launchers get hit, radio antennas get a beating, FJA is shot to peaces, PERI might stop working, few of the prisms (? periscopes ?) might break up etc. -Forcing the Leo to reverse to safety rather than just getting few ricochets and then destroying the BMP.

It would not be too hard to simulate with existing parametres:
Radio hit: radio value goes to 0 - connection to platoon leader might get lost
Sights hit: vision goes to 0 (TI hit) - not able to see through smoke, getting a fix on target might take longer with FERO -> less shots per turn
Vulnerable parts in turret get hit: stabilizer and fire control decrease (shooting to 1000m while moving is like kicking a baby while stab is working, but to do the same thing without stab is extremely hard!!!)
Also spotting ability decreases, AAMG is out, Turret can't turn (this might be hard to model, just like the turning time of turret...), smokes shots decrease, etc. etc.

Also HEAT-rounds are more likely going to explode without penetrating than simply bouncing off. The explosion most likely will knock some systems down even for a small time (stabilizer must be restarted, optics cleaned etc.)... Penalties for 1 turn for example.

This would really make the tank vs. tank or vs. something else-fights very interesting.

Of course the tanks might not get destroyed, but multiple hits will eventually break up something. Most tankers I know agree that if tank gets hit by AT-weapon it's more likely that something gets broken than nothing is affected. Now there are too many ricochets or no-effect hits. Penetrations are not all that kills!

I know that there is the star ***** system already in the engine, but it's not very good, because it only works when penetrations occur, making for example RPG-7 shots ineffective vs. front armour of modern tanks. If the non-penetrating hits could cause some damage **** even it would be better than nothing.

I know some of you will disagree, but in this area SPWAW is better. I don't mean perfect - it's far from that, but better. I always liked the "realism" included in SPMBT, but tank-fights have not improved a bit from times of SP1 and SP2...

Zip

[RecruitMonty]

good idea, spwaw have something similar and it has a real effect in game.

[Mobhack]

Bad idea, over-complex pseudo-"realism", adding loads of extra code for no realistic effect on the game.

The game uses basically the US Army model of M-Kill, F-Kill and Kill. That is all that is needed at the company/batallion level game.

Cheers
Andy

[Zipuli]

Company/Bn level game doesn't need individual soldiers and assault rifles/LMGs modelled either. Or hit percentages for individual M203 grenade against a sniper... But that just makes it stand out, right? No one loved the fact that they could run a bn in SP1. There were many games that let you do it. It was the little things that made it so good compared to others.

Now shot will in most cases have absolutely no effect or lethal effect. The "in-between" seems to be missing. I believe you when you say it's the US Army model. They have their things when talking about companies and battalions - as they should! But in this game it's INDIVIDUAL vehicles. Not platoons or companies where these little things are not so important. SP3 made it clear that it was a bit over complex, but there normal units were platoons - 30-50 men, 3-5 tanks... and still had SP2 mechanics for most of the things.

What I think is over-complex is that driver gets killed/loader gets killed, left track is lost, crew's personal equipment got hit, they catch cold before next fight because the heater in the tank is broken and their tent is destroyed, a round gets stuck in the MG3 and it takes 2 minutes 7 seconds to remove it etc... All these things would need all new unit data which would make it too complex. But if a tank has IR equipment, it can also be removed, right? Same with stab value, it can be zeroed... Or a weapon in slot x can be removed. Smoke discharger value can be changed. It's all there! Doesn't it speak against your argument? VIRSS or ARENA in co/bn level game? Armour values for anti-heat and anti KE? These things do not matter that much in co/bn level. You could have armour values like "light, medium, heavy, extra heavy", but you don't... I remember back in the days when it was important if AMX-30 had 13 or 14 side turret armour (not real values I know, but just an example . Why was it relevant? Is it relevant? Does it matter on bn level?

Like in infantry, you "modelled" wounded and killed as "casualty". That's better than x wounded, x killed and x lost their nerves and duck in grenade-hole...

But for tanks it would make sence. One tank is a squad. If you compare the vehicle damagemodel you have now to the infantry, it would be:
-all alive
-half dead
-all dead
...for infantry as it's for tanks. And with pistol you could not kill marines, but only militia. etc...

But now you can take out one man out of 13. Does it matter? Of course it does! Because if you take 2 out or 3, then the squad is not as effective anymore! But does it matter on bn level? I don't think so. There it would be more like: 3rd platoon/2. Coy has 15% casualties. They have depleted 50% of theit ammo. But now it makes a difference in the game if your 2nd squad/1st platoon has depleted its LMG ammo?!?

Does it have effect on the platoon, if 1 out of 3 tanks can only move half the speed the others, or it has vision 0 when others have 40? Does it have effect on company, if one platoon cannot keep up with the others because of the limping tank? Or one platoon cannot fight at night, because 2 out of 3 of them lost their IR systems in a rocket run? And the co commander cannot contact them??? -Now you can severely cripple a infantry company by dealing small damage to its squads by using pistols or close-combat. But with new tanks it's more like on/off or ok/killed, because only penetrations deal real damage and only big guns with decent Sabot-round penetrate.

With -little- more complex system it makes it more interesting... Same with group weapons like HMGs and ATGMs. They are bunched up so if they get hit, more casualties are likely to happen. Isn't this a bit complex for co/bn level? Still it is in the game and makes it more interesting...

The model you have now makes aircraft rocket runs ineffective vs. tanks, because the HE rockets will not penetrate. OK, no effect at all. Same with A/C autocannon. It also makes new tanks invulnerable vs. older ATGMs, because no penetration. No autocannon can do any harm to tanks. That is because WEAPONS are modelled with small details, but weapon effects vs tanks are not.

Just like you added top-attack missiles and tandem-warhead missiles. Does it count that much on bn level? Or advanced ERA? The game now has a lot more details than SP1 or 2 or 3 had and I think you made it better that way. Why? It's more realistic...

Don't get me wrong, I don't hate your game. I don't mean this as a "flame" of anger against your fine peace of work - it's best of its kind at the moment...

...But I wouldn't mind if it was even better.

Zip