Country Training

[loktarr]

Hello! I made an array with experience depending on countrys and units types and I think there are some funny points:
my array:
---------------US---UK---G---Fr---Italia---Russ---South Africa---------Canada
Base --------75---80---75--70---70-----68-------------75-----------------75
paratroops--85---90---85--80---85-----78
marines------80---90---**--75---80-----78
commandos-90---90---**--85----85----83
and then for "special" troops we have:
UK: Ghurkas 90/85 (morale/experience), RM 90/85
It:Bersaglieri 85/85
Fr:foreign Legion 85/85
Conclusion: a standard UK unit, has 80, and when scoot 83
The UK scoots have the same experience than french commados!!!
The french foreingn Legion, known to be one of the best corp of the world has less experience than Uk paratroops and bersaglieri!!!
I think it's not realistic, because if english paratroopers have proven to be very very good (falkland... etc) and are known for that all around the world, and even if UK army is one of the best army in the world, thoses differencies are to great. French army and especialy the foreign legion are really often deployed everywhere in the world and his experience of combat and peacekeeping is really superior to German, Italian, canadian or !!! South African capacities....
Note that for exemple, US Marines stopped their common jungle training with French Foreign legion, because it was too hard for them: this unit is composed of people from USA, UK, Germany, Spain,... who have no other possibility than to obey, and there are no cases since 1867 that Foreign Legion soldiers did surrender... The loses in trainig can be of 10% in some "commando"-called trainings. (It is naturaly not the same for the whole french army...)

So, it would be great of you to chance french country training and experience mods, because I think it would be better...
Naturaly, I can be wrong, in that because I am french (didn't you guess? ) and everybody thinks that his army is the best of the world...
Thank you for responding, and excuse me for the bad english.
best regards
Loktarr

[PlasmaKrab]

Sadly country training is a very sensitive issue...

Are these figures from legion units specifically or commandos at large?
Anyway UK having top-rating experience looks normal, and not only because at least one of the game designers is British

On the other hand I find the regular Germans too good to be true. They are still a conscript army anyhow, and even in the cold war era were not considered as the best around. I guess the German veterans her will be happy to comment on that!

[loktarr]

I will try to answer your question clearly:
The Legion is not a commando but a corp, composed of 10 r�giments, 9 Infantery R and 1 airborne R.
Is particular status comes from is creation in 1831, when the french king Louis-Philipe decided that people that want to be legionnaires would not have to give their identity... So a legionnaire could be a man fleeing the justice of his country, a man who want a second start in life...
Now, there are a lot of balkan or east (former Warsaw Pact) mens applying to the legion...
When they engage they sworn fidelity to France and they have a code which I can sum-up :_The mission is sacred,
_ No wounded, dead or weapons can be abandonned
That's why the training is really hard: to continue my exemple, Marines are an elite corp for USA but soldier are US citizen, the legion as not this problem with his soldier...
and so, the french commandos, (grouped in the COS: Special Operations Command) are french and their training is not so deadly, they are trained like in other countrys...
***********************
I precise for the game that they are two points on which I insisted (my first post is not clear I think):
-french country training is (for me) too bad,
-elite groops of EVERY nations are sometimes not enough good in comparison with (because they are the best) english troops...
I gave the legion exemple but what could think american people when Navy SEALs groups have less experience than UK Royal Marines...
And also in the UK OB, that's funny that SAS and SBS groups have the same experiance than RM and Ghurkas!!!
Once again thank you for responding and my excuses for the bad english.

[narwan]

Although I agree with loktarr regarding the foreign legion, which in my view are the best 'regular' special forces out there, country training is indeed sensitive. I'll spare you my opnions on the exact scores to save us all a heated debate.

Adding 5 points to either the french basic experience or raising that of the legion to +20 would go a long way. They are probably the best trained soldiers around (some 'obscure' special forces units excepted). But I doubt it'll happen.

On the legion, one of the reasons it's so good is that it gets 'lots' of actual combat experience (small scale and bush wars mostly, but still). As I understood it, the french government has to have parliamentary permission to deploy conscripts; to deploy professionals the need no advance approval but need to notify parliament of their deployment fairly quickly and be subject to possible withdrawal of the them by parliament; when it comes to the legion the government can very much do what they want, the only ones they have to tell are the parliamentairy committee on militairy matters and they can be told afterwards and they are not allowed to reveal what they learn in the committee. So there's all likelihood that legionaire's saw quite a bit more action than we know off...

[PlasmaKrab]

The Legion has always been the units for dirty wars and heavy secret ops for which the actual commandos were too light. Since they have light armor, artillery and engineers, I guess they would still be able to take over a small country all by themselves.

As loktarr said, the guys who sign in are generally fleeing, either criminals or overall reprobates who have no other choice than lifelong clandestinity or the Legion, which is lifelong clandestinity with traditions and someone shouting at you constantly.
They owe a lot to their unit, and since they are mostly foreigners they are about the only people in France to get a proper patriotic sense (however terrifying that will look to our American friends here), except for those who haven't reached hat level and stick along for the action, the occasionnal kill and the free beer.

They are the last chance for themselves, and used as the last chance in contingency, before it really turns awful.

And yes, they generally see more action than is known of, even action where people will not know there is action at all. But there are no conscripts anymore in France, so maybe the legal rule for engagement has been loosened a bit?

BTW, I guess there is a special downgraded rating for draftee units? That would be useful for dragging down the average in drafting countries, like Germany or Russia, where more or less of the force is conscription units, though there are some very good professional 'showcase' units which will be involved more easily and have the 'top standard' experience.

[loktarr]

I have just little points to had:
_since 1997, the french army is a professional army,
- the legion is as said by narwan not deployed the same as other units: they cannot (theoricaly) be deployed in France, and they are always deployed where the army could take heavy casualtys, for exemple in Ivory Coast, first where insertid COS commandos, then Legion and after that, the main "peacekeeping"() force composed of RIMa (=Marines)
-what is said about french patriotic sense is a bit caricatural but sadly not so false, I can assume that the army as really a patriotic sense (ouf!) but the population is only patriotic when it goes with his own interress (for t least 56% of them...)
-for more informations about the Legion:
http://www.foreignlegionlife.com/
*********************
Is it true that the German army has conscripts?
It woud be really funny if draftee units have more experience than professional ones...
I understand that it is difficult to change country training but it's not normal that the french experience stays the same before 97 and after 97...

[PlasmaKrab]

Pas de probl�me Loktarr, moi, j'ai le droit de caricaturer les Fran�ais...

The point was that no many people in Europe and no one in France recieve any education in dedicating to their country. Since fresh Legionnaires are foreigners drawing their last card, they have to be grateful and loyal

German army is still drafting AFAIK, and what I meant with that is that the overall exp and morale rating was too high for a drafting army in general. Look at Russia for example. Admittedly Russian army has a disastrous reputation for training and cadre, but that doesn't prevent them from having very serious regular units.
Same way with the Germans: since they don't have many conscripts left (not as many as during the cold war), they surely have some all-professional units with a much better level.

So my point was that we all could go round this problem like we want to by doubling the infantry units, to have both professional "regular elite" and conscription units. So, to take the example of France, if there are both conscripts with 64 exp and professionnals with 75 until 1997, after that date you have only 75er professionals left. Same with anyone.

[kevin]

I remember reading that 2006 will be the last year for conscription in Germany (and Spain fyi)

[loktarr]

The solution given by PlasmaKrab seems to be quite good, really hard to do (doubling all units in all countrys), it's already done for some countrys, US National Guard or USSR Reserve Co (-10/-10) for exemple, and it would be logical do to it for every body.
If conscription will stop 2006 in Germany(75) and Spain(75), it would be good to give them 70 before 2006, and then 75 as it is.
I am doing an array with all SPMBT values for experience and I will compare with reality, I will post it when finished (exel doc) So the mod creators (even if I doubt they want to) could change some funny numbers...
Note: I read that UK RM are only a brigade an are really an elite unit, also named 3rd Commando... (But that's an information given by the french army so I am not sure....) If true it wouldn't be choking that they have commando values

[PlasmaKrab]

And how do you want to compare with reality? Ask soldiers from all over the world if they think they are better than these or these fellow soldiers?

Anyway, sorry to tell you, but I fear you cannot change a country's overall training values over the years. On the other hand, if after that date you don't have conscripts, the overall level of your single squads won't change. Only you will have no more conscript sections to drag the average down.

What I meant was that even in a conscription army you can have both conscript squads, mostly for training duty, and better low-draftee-content squads, which can be seen as nearly professionnal. Once the country dumps conscription altogether, you get rid of the conscript squads and keep only the high-level professionals, keeping in mind that even then you will have green recruits in your ranks.

Oh, BTW, maybe lower the experience rate in the most active armies to acknowledge for the rotation rate of fresh soldiers/ reinforcements?

I hope I have been understandable now