Independent units!!

[SCAJolly]

I sent out a tiny mail on this issue in the Yahoo list some time ago, but there's the constant issue of rewriting the code...

I doubt I'm the first one to annoy myself over suppression, in particular when the unit that is suppressed is supposed to be a half independent weapon in real life.
Let's take a SP SAM example. The SA-6 Kub. Operates in batteries of 4 or 6.
ANYONE with the slightest experience, perhaps from the NVA, will know that you cannot simply put four of these inside a 200 square metre area. The distances between these vehicles are often in kilometres, and in the case of Egypt when its umbrella started leaking, I'm sure they stretched the lines very thin.

When you put these units too far apart in SP, they start complaining. They get afraid, they're suppressed! This should not happen! It's frustrating as heck when you try to achieve a realistic umbrella. You should be able to have certain units much further away from each other than what is possible today!

Here's the crapper today: An SPSAM battery is not really a battery. Had it been a proper battery, it would not look like X0, X1, X2 etc. It would look like X0, Y0, Z0 etc.

• Each unit would represent its own platoon. From there, one is even able to dedicate ordnance units to each SPSAM.

Am I missing an important issue, or "should" this be the way things had been done?

[Pyros]

Hi,

There is a fine line between absolute realism and gameplay.
It depends on what you seek...

For me WinSPMBT has found a very good equilibrium between those two and I am enjoying playing a game with very accurate characteristics for the various units involved.

Could further adjustments be done in the existing units? Sure, just take a look in the TO&Es forum.
But to re-write/modify the code is a very complicated work... It has to really be something important.

cheers,
Pyros

[Skirmisher]

This is an ongoing debate regarding wargames. The game is quite seperate from anything that happens in reality. I dont understand trying to be realistic myself because so many elements of real combat are not present.
Units should not be overused in alot of cases.

Its a game,and a really excellent one at that.

Thanks CAMO.

[kevin]

I think SCAJolly makes a good point here. I'm a stickler for reality too. The really great thing about what CAMO had done is that Orbats are easily changed. You can use the formaion changer to buy only one vehicle at a time. If youo want the X0 Y0 Z0 battery, then just buy 3 different vehicles seperatly. That will give the desired independence.

[Mobhack]

SCAJolly said:
I sent out a tiny mail on this issue in the Yahoo list some time ago, but there's the constant issue of rewriting the code...

I doubt I'm the first one to annoy myself over suppression, in particular when the unit that is suppressed is supposed to be a half independent weapon in real life.
Let's take a SP SAM example. The SA-6 Kub. Operates in batteries of 4 or 6.
ANYONE with the slightest experience, perhaps from the NVA, will know that you cannot simply put four of these inside a 200 square metre area. The distances between these vehicles are often in kilometres, and in the case of Egypt when its umbrella started leaking, I'm sure they stretched the lines very thin.

When you put these units too far apart in SP, they start complaining. They get afraid, they're suppressed! This should not happen! It's frustrating as heck when you try to achieve a realistic umbrella. You should be able to have certain units much further away from each other than what is possible today!

Here's the crapper today: An SPSAM battery is not really a battery. Had it been a proper battery, it would not look like X0, X1, X2 etc. It would look like X0, Y0, Z0 etc.

• Each unit would represent its own platoon. From there, one is even able to dedicate ordnance units to each SPSAM.

Am I missing an important issue, or "should" this be the way things had been done?

Not really sure what your problem is here.

1) if they have radios, they can be in C&C anywhere on the map (with occasional break downs of the radio link). The 200 or so metres is for guaranteed voice comms.

2) If you thinlk nation X's SAM batteries should be a set of independanrt sections, then make one in Mobhack.
formation - "SAM Detatchment" as a section with 1 SAM
and parent "SAM Battery" as HQ (second class company or company as with recce units) holding some sections.

Unfortunately - the game does not charge for command units as do most tabletop rules, so splitting up into micro-formations comes for "free"

Andy

[Marek_Tucan]

Just when we're at it about SAM's I'm going to raise my favourite one - would it be possible to have off-board SAM's?
OK, now it is possible to make and off-board arty unit armed with SAM's and with Radar FC. No problem here. Except in situations on-board version of the same fires with 80% accuracy, the offboard ones are lucky to get 16%... Also there was a problem with firing ARM's on them - the aircraft fired them but in a scenario where there are reinforcements waiting to be deployed, the game treats them as being in one hex with arty etc., because every ARM fired on the SAM's killed reinforcements as collaterral damage.
Now why I raise this?... Well, just for a feeling. The long-range SAM systems as Patriot or SA-4 IMO don't have a place on the SP battlefield, SA-4's were supposed to have first batteries at least 10 kilometers behind the frontline.

Well... Now ready for flaming)

[SCAJolly]

Mobhack said:
Not really sure what your problem is here.

1) if they have radios, they can be in C&C anywhere on the map (with occasional break downs of the radio link). The 200 or so metres is for guaranteed voice comms.

2) If you thinlk nation X's SAM batteries should be a set of independanrt sections, then make one in Mobhack.
formation - "SAM Detatchment" as a section with 1 SAM
and parent "SAM Battery" as HQ (second class company or company as with recce units) holding some sections.

Unfortunately - the game does not charge for command units as do most tabletop rules, so splitting up into micro-formations comes for "free"

Andy

Basically, you say that a unit that is 5km from its plt leader will be given the same benefits of rally as a unit that's next to its leader?

These occasional breaks in radio link, how often do they occur?

[Mobhack]

SCAJolly said:

Basically, you say that a unit that is 5km from its plt leader will be given the same benefits of rally as a unit that's next to its leader?

These occasional breaks in radio link, how often do they occur?

Radio range in SP universe is unlimited.

how often? - depends on experience and supression etc, try a few games and see how often units well away fro the commander are in contact.

Cheers
Andy

[KevinRanger95]

How would you deal with sam suppression with off board sams, same as counterbattery firing?

[Mobhack]

KevinRanger95 said:
How would you deal with sam suppression with off board sams, same as counterbattery firing?

There are no off board SAMS in the game.

Cheers
Andy