odd 1.30 observation

tictoc · #1 March 17th, 2001, 05:19 PM

Guys. I've noticed with the new 1.30 patch the AI runs out of resources quite early in the game typically <50 turns. The AI appears to be building it's ships compliment up faster than it can afford it. Anyone else see this happen? I'm using the stock game (no mods), quick start.

tic

[This message has been edited by tictoc (edited 17 March 2001).]

Emperor Zodd · #2 March 17th, 2001, 06:45 PM

Yes, I have noticed.
The AI builds better now but can't manage it's resources like a human does.

There are two alternatives.
1. Slow down their production, but they will play a very weak game.(Not acceptable)

2. Play with a bonus to help them out.(A must)

Im waiting for the next modpack to start a new game with low bonus.
I hope it will be out soon.

[This message has been edited by Emperor Zodd (edited 17 March 2001).]

Arralen · #3 March 17th, 2001, 07:55 PM

Saw the Ai still building mineral miner facs at a 4% world, because it needed more minerals.
I hope this was fixed with SE4, but the game behaves as dumb as SE3 sadly.

Shouldn't be that hard to get rid of this ?!

A.

Marty Ward · #4 March 17th, 2001, 10:19 PM

I noticed the same thng with the AI running out of resources. I guess since the modders have tweaked the shipbuilding routines now the resources are a little out of balance.
As Emperor Zodd pointed out you should always play with a bonus, I usually play low or medium and get a decent game. Be aware that the AI bonus gives extra resources, research and intel points.
I generally choose the other races manually edit them to account for this. I lower their research and intel abilities a little. I reduce their maintenance cost and increase resource production, usually mineral. This still gives them an advantage in research and intel but not 2-5 times. It also helps them keep large fleets in action.
This is not perfect but I think it will be a huge task to get all AI to use all aspects of the game well. It is so complicated and interlocked that there will always be some comprimises.

Tomgs · #5 March 18th, 2001, 02:14 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Arralen:
Saw the Ai still building mineral miner facs at a 4% world, because it needed more minerals.
I hope this was fixed with SE4, but the game behaves as dumb as SE3 sadly.

Shouldn't be that hard to get rid of this ?!

Actually this can be modded away. The reason it happens is simple. Each world has to have some facilities and these are scripted by what is needed and the order they are scripted in. The Last scripted world type for all AI states is a mineral miner world so it is the catchall for whenever they colonize a world that doesn't fit any other catagory. So any world that is colonized and, either doesn't fit the classifications, or they have already colonized enough of the specified colony type that that world fits, then it will become a mineral miner world even if it would be perfect for something else. The "fix" is to make some other type of world the catchall. But you could have the same problems with that type of world becoming too numerous and/or being perfect for something other type that has already been built up to its current quota. I believe some mods address this area already but I don't know if a perfect fix has been made yet.

[This message has been edited by Tomgs (edited 18 March 2001).]

tictoc · #6 March 18th, 2001, 03:10 AM

Marty...

As i said in my first post, i'm not using any mods, so theoretically, the resources (or AI management of them) should not be 'out of balance'. I would have thought that even at the most basic level (for players new to this amazing piece of software), the AI would be smart enough not to cripple itself or (Emperor), have to rely on the players intervention to give it a bonus just to play on a level par. Maybe this needs to be addressed in the next patch.

tic

Possum · #7 March 18th, 2001, 07:13 AM

Heya, guys

This is a rather complex issue, I fear. I mean, it's easy to underestimate the complexity of the decision-making process that we, as human players, go through in playing SE4.

I'm not really much of a programmer, so I hesitate to criticize Aaron too much on this.

On the one hand, one can look at the Q3 bots, and the incredibly complex fuzzy logic they use to make their fighting decisions. And one can look at the AI in Homeworld, and that seems to behave pretty intelligently.

On the other hand, those games do not really involve the same complexities of long-range planning; both are essentially tactical situations only.

But the gripping hand is, the SE4 AI does work, if not always quite as well as we might wish it would

Just as Aaron never stopped supporting and improving SE3, I think we can confidently expect him to keep refining SE4 for a long time to come.

Daynarr · #8 March 18th, 2001, 12:17 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Tomgs:
Actually this can be modded away. The reason it happens is simple. Each world has to have some facilities and these are scripted by what is needed and the order they are scripted in. The Last scripted world type for all AI states is a mineral miner world so it is the catchall for whenever they colonize a world that doesn't fit any other catagory. So any world that is colonized and, either doesn't fit the classifications, or they have already colonized enough of the specified colony type that that world fits, then it will become a mineral miner world even if it would be perfect for something else. The "fix" is to make some other type of world the catchall. But you could have the same problems with that type of world becoming too numerous and/or being perfect for something other type that has already been built up to its current quota. I believe some mods address this area already but I don't know if a perfect fix has been made yet.

What Arralens said is correct, when AI runs out (has higher maintenance then income value) of some resource like organics, he will make next colonized world Farming colony no matter what resources the planet has and no matter what the AI files contains. In ModPack all my moded races have Last call for research compound instead of mining colony and this still happens to them. Sergetti and Xi'Chung don't have ANY Mining colony call for any planet with value below 101% and still, when they run out of minerals, they build mining colonies on mineral-poor planets.

However, it seems that since the 1.27 patch the following line is not used by AI anymore: Maximum Maintenance Percent of Revenue := 80

This line used to make AI stop building new ships and bases when it had maintenance at 80% of total income and that way AI wouldn't run out of resources and would not stop building facilities and units. However since the 1.27 (and 1.30) patch it appears that AI is simply not using this line anymore.

I don't think it is intentional since it causes AI to run out of resources and brings his production to a standstill (or worse, it makes AI scrap its existing bases and ships), so this has to be reported to Aaron to fix it.

Marty Ward · #9 March 18th, 2001, 05:08 PM

If the AI is not paying attention to the maximum maintenance line that would explain a lot of what I have seen.
I my current game the AI has huge fleets but I think it has reached a level where it can't build any more facilities or add new designs because all their minerals are used for maintenance.

tictoc · #10 March 18th, 2001, 05:34 PM

Daynarr.
So does mephisto's modpack 1.61 address this problem or is it hard coded and therefore inherent in the mod as well?

tic

[This message has been edited by tictoc (edited 18 March 2001).]

[This message has been edited by tictoc (edited 18 March 2001).]

[This message has been edited by tictoc (edited 18 March 2001).]