The Abysyan problems ...

[Cohen]

Time ago it happened to talk in the mIRC channel about Abysya.

Me, and someone else pointed some Abysyan problems ...

First the National Spell ... that is pretty useless to Abysya. An F3 Flare are avaiable to be cast only by Ant Dragons, very expensive in gold terms, and with poor precision. Even because probably you'll play without any of them in early game, and you probably reach the Flare research even before using it.

Meanwhile other Nations have National spell affordable by his common mages, Abysya hasn't.
The idea that exited (not from me, but from Sheap) was to give to Abysya some demon summoning as National Spells.
There was the idea of a sort of Astral demon since Abysya has low access to other elemental demons except devils.

The other problem that sorted out is the Abysyan problem of research. The Blood research slow a lot the Abysyan battle magic, site search and such, considering Abysya needs to find sages to have a good research and try to blood hunt effectively (BoH can't take magic scale, default abysya has only researchers and blood hunter in capitol).

I posted this because someone agreed to those problems ...
IMO (and this is personal think) Abysyan mages are too costy for their effectiveness.

[Ygorl]

I've always found Abysia to be remarkably powerful, and never had problems with researching, with gaining access to any school of magic I wanted, or with affording things. Maybe I've just been lucky (I'm pretty new, all things considered) or maybe they just suit my style very well, but those hot little guys do well for me.

[Cainehill]

Actually, the problem is that you don't know how to play Abysia, and keep hitting your thumb with the hammer over and over, apparently hoping that someday it'll work.

No Anathemant Dragons early? Some of us recruit at least 1 Dragon in the first 1-4 turns. It can use flare, which even with poor precision is useful against large Groups of troops, and it can cast Fanaticism after the first couple rounds of battle, to keep the troops from routing. (Not to mention the benefit of making an A.Dragon the prophet, thus giving Smite/Smite/Smite/Smite/Smite as an option, without precision being an issue.)

Then, the pretender can also use flare from turn 1, which is awesome if the pretender has fairly high fire magic and decent precision.

All of which is perfectly safe for your own troops, since they're immune to fire - unlike, say, Marignon, which sometimes roasts it's own troops with Holy Pyre.

And you want Abysia to _start_ with a demon spell, when they're already probably the 2nd best Blood nation in the game, quite capable of winning via large hordes of demons and devils.

Frankly, Abysia has a darn good starting spell compared to some other national themes - TC, which needs lucky random to use its summoning spells, or seafaring Marignon, which gets Holy Pyre and _no one_ recruitable capable of casting it.

Edit: Oh, and you think they're too expensive? Higher HPs than most mages, 100% fire resistant, and 2 of them, the Salamander and Dragon, are sacred (1/2 upkeep) and have very good priest abilities for dealing with undead, for dealing with morale and routing, and for calling your pretender back from the dead for the 5th time in 30 turns.

Say, Cohen, it's great to have you back. Have you met Boron and Tauren yet?

[Yossar]

Very few nations can even come close to researching as well without sages as they can with them. That isn't a problem specific to Abysia.

[Thufir]

Now, how did I know Cainehill was going to respond to this post?

Cainehill, I can see that Marine Corps sensitivity training has really had an impact on your outlook on life.

[Cainehill]

Yossar said:
Very few nations can even come close to researching as well without sages as they can with them. That isn't a problem specific to Abysia.

Yep. Probably at least 1/3 the nations in the game have "problems" with research unless and until they find sages or some such. And only a handful of the themes have particularly great research.

[Cohen]

I used time ago to build up a force of Anthemats to flare the enemy and such.
This strategy could be viable only against indies and unprepared enemies. Fire Immunity is easy to reach soon and 360 gold are a lot in the first 4 turns ... unless you spend your starting budget.
And Flare is too 50 fatigue.
I know about prophetization ... it was my SP strategy ... in MP it reveals pretty poor.

A.Dragons could be useful to Fire from Afar at least ... but since you alchemize a lot of the fire gems you've at start, you're in some troubles.

[Sheap]

I do like the idea of an Astral demon for Abysia. It is thematic, and as has been pointed out, Abysia already has plenty of demons, so its not going to add a whole bunch of new capabilities to them. Yet they can't summon any of the elemental demons, save with the pretender.

Abysia's research is very bad, it is true, and this is one of those things that balances them out, since they are strong in other ways. Although since Abysia has relatively little use for magic other than blood, they don't strictly NEED all that research.

[Arryn]

Thufir said:
Cainehill, I can see that Marine Corps sensitivity training has really had an impact on your outlook on life.

Yes, he's sensitive to BS, and he's on the lookout for it.

Too bad that half the nation (the so-called "Compassionate Conservative" half -- a prime example of Orwellian doublespeak) isn't equally as sensitive, or as observant.

[Boron]

Sheap said:
I do like the idea of an Astral demon for Abysia. It is thematic, and as has been pointed out, Abysia already has plenty of demons, so its not going to add a whole bunch of new capabilities to them. Yet they can't summon any of the elemental demons, save with the pretender.

Abysia's research is very bad, it is true, and this is one of those things that balances them out, since they are strong in other ways. Although since Abysia has relatively little use for magic other than blood, they don't strictly NEED all that research.

uhm there is always a use for construction with all nations .
evocation + alteration + conjuration are nice for abysia too after blood .

i think all nations need at least either thaumaturgy or alteration or evocation for battlemagic , al nations need construction for SCs and either blood or conjuration to summon them .

enchantment is perhaps not so important for abysia .
more than thaum 2 ( for sitesearch ) is not so important too .

but conjuration 6 at least is pretty good for abysia to give them extra research / flexibility by spectres .
alteration is good for pretenderbuffing .
evo is good too and blood of course .


i think almost every nation in dom can use almost all schools , expect enchantment / thaumaturgy are not important early game goals .
thaumaturgy is for nature / astral mages as anti-sc weapon though .



that abysia needs further strengthening is insane .
they are one of the first 5 nations taken in almost every mp game .
with the right pretender they are really good , imo even too good .

oh and welcome back from your holiday cohen