12-14 player Urgaia

[Cainehill]

Since Quantum_Mechanic mentioned thinking that Urgaea would be a fun map to play with 13 players, and I agreed that it would be interesting, I did a little thinking about it.

Certain races (Jotuns, Ulm, etc) would have a huge advantage, given the incredibly close proximity of everyone to one another. Because of this, I'm not sure it would be a good / fair game if races went out first come, first claimed.

Someone, either Zen or Gandalf, had mentioned doing games where each person designed a pretender for a nation, but then the nations were randomly assigned. Thus, no-one builds the uber-setup they think would be capable of winning, but rather one that someone else would be hard pressed to win with - everyone gets a sub-optimal pretender.

Kind of interesting, but a lot of work, what with passwords and all.

But maybe if you did a lottery to see who gets first choice of nations, who gets 2nd, etc? Everyone has a fair chance of getting something decent - the 1st person gets a primo nation, sure. But the next to Last and Last get to make a choice with the knowledge of just what nations are going to be in the game, which might even it out a little bit.

(This actually goes with what I think is wrong with tournaments like Napoleon is doing - certain people, with certain nations, are going to dominate. But giving them a random nation, or maybe even better, a random setup - ie, the Pretender is already designed - makes it more of an even playing field, imo.)

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Cainehill:
Someone, either Zen or Gandalf, had mentioned doing games where each person designed a pretender for a nation, but then the nations were randomly assigned. Thus, no-one builds the uber-setup they think would be capable of winning, but rather one that someone else would be hard pressed to win with - everyone gets a sub-optimal pretender.

That's just a reversal of designing the most effective pretender, like with Nagot's game: You wanted to design the most crippled and useless pretender possible, since you wouldn't be playing it.

But maybe if you did a lottery to see who gets first choice of nations, who gets 2nd, etc? Everyone has a fair chance of getting something decent - the 1st person gets a primo nation, sure. But the next to Last and Last get to make a choice with the knowledge of just what nations are going to be in the game, which might even it out a little bit.

That's essentially what happens: In the event of a collision, there's a random toss to see who gets it, and who gets to pick something else. Even if it was strictly "dibs", first come first serve, being the first to choose is not necessarily an advantage: Yes, you get the nation you like most, but everyone knows this before they even have to decide, and you're making your choice blind: You have to be fairly confident in your ability to play that nation to do this. At the opposite end of the spectrum is the late entry, where many nations are taken....but you know what you're up against, and if a nation YOU want is still open....great! If not, at least you know it's not, and can move on. Picking in the middle of the pack, on the other hand, lets you glance at some of your opposition, while still being able to snag one of your choice nations. It's all a tradeoff, either way: Randomly assigned nations is really a good thing, as most people don't have adequate playing experience with every single nation out there.

(This actually goes with what I think is wrong with tournaments like Napoleon is doing - certain people, with certain nations, are going to dominate. But giving them a random nation, or maybe even better, a random setup - ie, the Pretender is already designed - makes it more of an even playing field, imo.)

Not everyone is suited to play every nation, and finding and designing one's setup of choice *IS* an integral part of the Dominions II experience. Besides, who wants somebody else's crippled, useless pretender?

[ July 25, 2004, 00:26: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

[quantum_mechani]

Originally posted by Cainehill:

Someone, either Zen or Gandalf, had mentioned doing games where each person designed a pretender for a nation, but then the nations were randomly assigned. Thus, no-one builds the uber-setup they think would be capable of winning, but rather one that someone else would be hard pressed to win with - everyone gets a sub-optimal pretender.

Kind of interesting, but a lot of work, what with passwords and all.

But maybe if you did a lottery to see who gets first choice of nations, who gets 2nd, etc? Everyone has a fair chance of getting something decent - the 1st person gets a primo nation, sure. But the next to Last and Last get to make a choice with the knowledge of just what nations are going to be in the game, which might even it out a little bit.

This seems a neat idea, and one I've been wanting to try for a while. However, a possibly better way of doing it would be to have a third party create a thematic pretender for each nation.

[Cheezeninja]

Originally posted by quantum_mechani:

This seems a neat idea, and one I've been wanting to try for a while. However, a possibly better way of doing it would be to have a third party create a thematic pretender for each nation.

I think thats a much better idea as well. Plus a suboptimal pretender or setup for nations that would have an advantage on that map could even the score a little bit.

[quantum_mechani]

Well, it looks like you probably won't be going for Urgaia or a similar sized map. If so, I volunteer for being the 'third party' that creates the pretenders .

[Cohen]

I'd suggest instead not to design pretender, but to assign nations randomly.

So on everyone design his pretender of his randomly got Nation.

I believe many ppl could bet upset to have a blessing suited pretender when they want something else. Or such things.

[Cainehill]

Originally posted by Norfleet:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cainehill:
But maybe if you did a lottery to see who gets first choice of nations, who gets 2nd, etc? Everyone has a fair chance of getting something decent - the 1st person gets a primo nation, sure. But the next to Last and Last get to make a choice with the knowledge of just what nations are going to be in the game, which might even it out a little bit.

That's essentially what happens: In the event of a collision, there's a random toss to see who gets it, and who gets to pick something else. Even if it was strictly "dibs", first come first serve, being the first to choose is not necessarily an advantage: Yes, you get the nation you like most, but everyone knows this before they even have to decide, and you're making your choice blind: You have to be fairly confident in your ability to play that nation to do this. At the opposite end of the spectrum is the late entry, where many nations are taken....but you know what you're up against, and if a nation YOU want is still open....great! If not, at least you know it's not, and can move on. Picking in the middle of the pack, on the other hand, lets you glance at some of your opposition, while still being able to snag one of your choice nations. It's all a tradeoff, either way: Randomly assigned nations is really a good thing, as most people don't have adequate playing experience with every single nation out there.[/qb]

---

But I think you'd agree that almost everyone would generally prefer having first choice, and very few would want Last. Currently, you get people grabbing dibs, getting first choice (and possibly some advantage) while others coming late look at the leftovers and decide not to play.

Doing a lottery means that every player in the game has a chance at a good pick of nations; maybe they don't get one, but they have the chance. While the regular fanatics don't always get their favorite races just because they check for new open games every 10 minutes, all day, every day.

But I agree - randomly assigning nations would be good as well, possibly leading people to discover a new favorite, and at the minimum giving them a better understanding of the nation, helping them to play more effectively against it.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Cainehill:
But I think you'd agree that almost everyone would generally prefer having first choice, and very few would want Last. Currently, you get people grabbing dibs, getting first choice (and possibly some advantage) while others coming late look at the leftovers and decide not to play.

Well, if I wasn't the big dog around, I'd be actually inclined to pick later, when I know I'll be up against. Yes, some people will look at the leftovers and decide not to attend this round....but he loses nothing from this. Not everyone can afford to lifelessly study every single nation like I can, after all, and even I don't find every nation is suited for me in equal measure.

Originally posted by Cainehill:
But I agree - randomly assigning nations would be good as well, possibly leading people to discover a new favorite, and at the minimum giving them a better understanding of the nation, helping them to play more effectively against it.

Err, well, I meant to say it wasn't a good thing, but I'm old and I have a long beard. It's a cute idea for an experimental game, but probably not a great plan for a competitive tournament.

[The_Tauren13]

Originally posted by Cohen

I'd suggest instead not to design pretender, but to assign nations randomly.

So on everyone design his pretender of his randomly got Nation.

sounds reasonable to me; imho someone cant be considered good unless they can play well with all nations. and this way nobody can blame a loss on a lousy pretender.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by The_Tauren13:
sounds reasonable to me; imho someone cant be considered good unless they can play well with all nations. and this way nobody can blame a loss on a lousy pretender.

It'd suck to be the guy who ended up with Tien Chi, though.