Gryphon Rider too weak/costly?

[PvK]

This is about Edi's post in the bug thread, which I didn't want to spam with OT discussion:

Originally posted by Edi:
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The Garnet Amazon holy unit, Gryphon Rider has to be changed. Right now it costs 125 gold, 25 resources and it's very fragile. Yes, itturns into a gryphon when the rider gets killed, but after the battle ends, the gryphon dies (unlike in Dom-PPP where it stuck around like the Machakan Hunter Spiders do in Dom2). This makes it a completely worthless investment and quite frankly the worst sacred unit in the game bar none. It ought to be changed back to the previous status, or the cost significantly reduced.
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I thought she was pretty good, even with gryphons that don't stick around. It also seems thematic that the gryphons do leave - I've read it is rather difficult to earn a gryphon as a mount.

Resource cost is 20, not 25, when I look at it.

It's a sacred flying unit with mountain and plains survival. Three attacks: Light Lance, bite, claw (16 and 18 damage, no penalties).

Rider is HP 10 and Prot 10, so yes that is the weakness, but the rest is rather good: Attack 13, Defense 16, Morale 14, Enc 4, Strat Move 3.

It is 2-3 times as expensive as the other holy Amazon mounted units, and I suppose not 2-3 times as good. It's the most deadly rear-striker, though, flying in with three good attacks (which could be flaming, for instance, with Fire-9 blessing).

However comparing to Machakan Black Hunters, which are very similar in terms of skills (the rider has practically the same skill levels but different equipment and a different mount (non-flying but nastier due to the web), they have exactly the same cost (125 gold) but 38 resources (presumably for the metal armor). BH's are expensive but definitely worth it if they can be afforded. I tend to think that Gryphon Riders would also be worth it but their value is in flying and attack strength rather than survivability. A nice unit rather than something to spend all gold on, but worth it in that respect, it seems to me.

Also seems thematically appropriate. Gryphon riders probably wouldn't be particularly economical in a real and consistent world. But they would be unique and dangerous. Which is how they are. So it seems about right to me, having only considered it this far.

Other opinions?

PvK

[Scott Hebert]

I tend to agree with you, PvK, on this issue. While you can compare the Gryphon Rid.. [slight disconnect over mod idea] er to the Machaka 'big-spider-thingy', a better comparison might be to the Wind Rider of Arcoscephale, though an initial thought is that since the Wind Rider was made after the Gryphon Rider, it probably used the Gryphon Rider as a starting point.

I do know, though, that trying to take over Ruby Amazon territories is really annoying, because of the Gryphon Riders. You can take this one of two ways. One, that the Gryphon Rider should be better, because the cost of being able to recruit one is higher than normal. Or two, the Gryphon Rider is already 'good enough' because of that very difficulty with taking their provinces.

[Vicious Love]

Agreed, PvK. The hunter spider is a mainstay unit(Or the higher-end variant of the spider rider mainstay unit, at any rate). Without hunter spiders or spider knights/riders, a Machakan army is simply incomplete, and spider troops are the backbone of any Machakan raiding party.
Gryphon Riders, on the other hand, are a more specialized kind of unit. They fill a very specific niche which some nations(Particularly ones without air magic, blood magic, or flyers of their own) can benefit tremendously from(Bringing down a VQ without flyers is always tricky, for instance).
If they're overpriced, it's because they're exotic indy troops, meant to be used under specific strategic conditions or supplement existing armies, not national troops, which are supposed to be able to win wars on their own.

Update: Point in case - The Last thing anyone expects Atlantis to do is start striking at undefended enemy hinterlands with Water-9 blessed flying shock troops. Caelum might benefit a bit less from indy flyers, but that's why they're indies.

[ June 14, 2004, 21:13: Message edited by: Vicious Love ]

[Vynd]

I think the Gryphon Riders are fine. Sure, maybe they're not as good as the very best knights and knight equivalents in the game in terms of pure toughness and power, but they make up for that with their flight. Are there any recruitable flying units out there that are better, 1 for 1?

What's so awesome about the other Amazonian sacred troops, anyway? I got my first look at some Onyx Amazons the other day, and I was not all that impressed by their sacred unit. The Jade Amazon cavalry is nice, but didn't seem truly remarkable to me. I've never checked out the Diamond Amazons, I gather they're the coolest?

[PvK]

They're all good but not game winners by themselves, and tend to be on the light side in terms of Protection.

Jade have the lightest cavalry, but it is dirt cheap (40 gold and sacred). The Onyx cavalry is definitely unique - huge fatigue but with a Fear effect. Like the Gryphon Riders, the I expect the Onyx cavalry is better, the more you have - neither would do well in a heavy head-on battle with very tough and brave opponents, but enough of them can annihilate a less formidable target.

Crystal amazons have air and astral magic and accuracy 13 + Air, they all carry short bows and their cavalry ride pegasi. They are a lot cheaper than gryphon riders (50 gold and 5 resources) and are much more fragile (and I don't think the pegasus stays to fight after the rider falls, at all), but they do have 18 defense... combine that with a heavy water blessing and they might never get hit. Their melee attacks are just Light Lance and Hoof, though.

PvK

[Arralen]

Onyx Rides are absolutly devastating with a lowly earth-4/death-4 blessing. You only have to make shure they don't take the brunt of the enemies attack - if they're set to attack rearmost, it's irrelevant if it works or not: Troops they attack from the flank/behind will root very fast.