Preventing Domino Surrender?

[raynor]

How do you think the game should be changed to prevent the AI domino surrender effect?

Should the mechanism used to calculate the score be changed? Should bases/ships count less? Should some ships benefit the score more than others?

Should the AI diplomacy routines require you to do 'x' amount of damage to their planet(s) in addition or in place of a much higher score?

How about this? Do you think the AI should require that you have at least visited a system with an AI player's planet in it before it immediately surrenders to you?

Should the diplomacy routines be modified so that some empires will NEVER surrender to you?

[Markavian]

Em, I've not had much luck with surrenderrings :-\ Only once or twice have I actually forced an empire wtih only 2 or 3 planets left to give in.

Also, I think the mega-evil declare war thingy should be abolished or changed. Why should they go completely insane when they find out our empire is 5x bigger than theirs? I think thats suicide personally!!!

[Drake]

If you started out even and now have 5x their score, they aren't going to catch up. It may be suicide, but they sure as hell aren't going to have a chance without ganging up on you...

As for the dominoe surrender affect, if it was changed so you needed 50x their score instead of 10x, everything would be fine. Either that, or a minimum number of turns/years before they would consider a surrender.

The current problem is that they'll give in within the first few turns, they start slow, and that they can't fight tactical combat worth a damn. If you fixed these, the surrender issue becomes a non-issue, because you wouldn't be able to take out 15 AI with a few escorts in 20 turns then.

[AJC]

If you dont like the mega evil empire setting - go into the DATA folder and change the setting file and change:
AI uses Mega Evil Empire to False.
_____
Ram Ship Target Modifier Percent := 100
AI Uses Mega Evil Empire := True
AI Mega Evil Empire Threshold Score Thousands := 500
AI Human Mega Evil Empire Score Percent := 170
AI Computer Mega Evil Empire Score Percent := 250



[This message has been edited by AJC (edited 17 February 2001).]

[raynor]

A large component of the domino surrender is the ease with which you can 'blockade' the AI homeworld. If you send an escort (which *might* not even be armed) to their homeworld and press 'End Turn' 30 times without ever engaging the planetary defenses, then the game considers you to be blockading their homeworld. This costs the AI about half their score without much trouble and just about doubles how quickly you can make the AI's surrender to you.

I didn't try it with an unarmed ship. If you can blockade with an unarmed ship, I would like to see that changed. I *guess* it makes sense that you can blockade without engaging the planetary defenses. That would make sense from the naval perspective where the enemy might be able to utterly destroy your warships if they came into range of gun emplacements in a city. But if you waited just outside the range of those gun emplacements, any ship trying to get out of or into the harbor could be harassed by your fleet.

[This message has been edited by raynor (edited 17 February 2001).]

[Baron Munchausen]

The AI_Politics file controls how willing they are to surrender, doesn't it? Just edit these and make an individual setting for each empire. The "warriors" like the Jraenar or the Sergetti should never surrender. others can be more or less willing. ALL of the "neutrals" are the same because they use the default file. Maybe it's time to create distinct personalities for the neutrals, too.

[WhiteHojo]

I've played quite a few games of SE4 and I just realized something. I have never noticed a computer empire surrendering to another computer empire...

Has anyone ever seen this happen?

just a passing question.

------------------
Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

[raynor]

Hmm... Baron Munchausen's comment about the Sergetti reminded me of something in my Last game start. It *seemed* like the Sergetti didn't immediately surrender upon encountering their first glimpse of one of my ships. I *thought* my score was easily 20x theirs at the time. But whereas the Last 5 or so races all capitulated upon learning of my empire's existence, I actually had to send a ship to the Sergetti homeworld before they realized the error of their ways. If I'd had weapons on that ship, I just might have destroyed their planet rather than accepting their unconditional surrender.

(Okay, so I had one tiny little CSM I on the ship. But if I'd attacked, their planetary defences would have laughed at my escort)

Any ideas why the Sergetti would require a greater than 10x score?

[Baron Munchausen]

I had a similar experience with a neutral in a recent game. I had planted a couple of colonies in his system, on worlds he could not colonize, and he was constantly attacking them. I didn't want to hassle with having to invade so I just demanded his surrender -- figuring I'd get it automatically because of the score difference. Nope. Only when I finally sent in a fleet and attacked/blockaded a planet (not even the homeworld, though) did he surrender. I can only guess that MM has added some "minimal amount of damage requirement" to allow a surrender so you can't establish diplomatic contact and then demand surrender immediately.

[raynor]

I think a minimal damage requirement would be great. But I'm not sure anything like that is in place. There were several races to whom I sent surrender demands as soon as I encountered their ships. Most of them surrendered before I even entered a system in which they had a colony.

The idea of a minimum turns until they will surrender sounds interesting. How many turns do you think it should be? 20 turns? 50 turns?