Making effective use of commanders

[Firebreath]

I have a few questions regarding commanders. I'm relatively new to the game, though I believe I have garnered most of the basic concepts. Any enlightenment will be....enlightening

So...

1)Do unit specific commanders add bonuses when commanding their unit type? (for example, will a hoplite commander command hoplites better than a mounted commander, or will a salamander lord make the salamanders function more effectively?)

2)Are standard (millitary) commanders useful for anything other than just being there (and commanding units) on the battlefield without dying? i.e. Since most of the time they don't fight (to avoid dying and routing friendly troops, is there any point in having extra millitary commanders (other than to make it harder for the enemy to kill them all)?

3)Other than *godlike* commanders like the vamp. queen or the mataharaja, who are pretty effective on the battlefield, is there any point in equiping standard commanders with forged items (early game, anyway)?

4)Some nations have lots of commanders that all look the same - is there any difference between them other than that one has a mace and the other has an axe as his basic weapon (and what difference does it really make if he has a mace, a halberd, a pike, an axe or anything else anyway, since most likely he won't be using it?).

5)If your nation has both leadership 25 and leadership 50 commanders, for pretty much the same price, what's the point in the leadership 25 ones? (i'm still talking about basic non-magic non-priest commanders, with no special abilities).

6)Off topic - taking ulm as an example, what difference does it make if I pick units with a sword, say, or an axe or a halberd (ignoring the very minor differences that they bright to attack/defence Ratings) - I assume that some are better against various shield or armoured units, whilst others are less encumbered and so better at militia bashing?

Thanks for any answers

[PDF]

1/ No

2/ For a given army you should have "sufficient" commanders plus a couple more in case the other get killed (else everyone routs !) - not counting SCs...

3/ Not really, they are generally to weak to warrant huge equipment spending - but there may be exceptions : Assassins, Heroes, big badasses like Abysians...

4/ That's mainly an Ulm decorum thingie - Variety in sameness ! There's one main difference between the Groups : armor type and shield or not (prot ranging from 15 to 20). Second difference in weapons is way less important.

5/ They are usually cheaper, and it's safer to have 2 commanders for 50 troops than only 1, lest he be killed in battle by a stray bolt or spell

6/ Linked to 4/ : the various flavors of Ulmish canned-commanders have slightly different fighting abilities - but usually they shouldnt fight at all...

[ March 30, 2004, 15:09: Message edited by: PDF ]

[Gandalf Parker]

Id have to question a couple of those answers.

There are commanders which SEEM to have some benefits to handling certain troops. Abyssia with the dragon handlers, Ctis with the lizard handler. Doesnt Pythium have one for hydras? Not sure the names for all of them but I could look them up. The way they read I suspected they help avoid routing though Ive never actually tested it.

Also, combining 2 and 3, I often give standard commanders things like a dragon helm or a bow to give them something to do while "stay behind troops".

The other answers I agree with.

[ March 30, 2004, 16:14: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

[BkWyrm]

I often throw some commanders a Rod of Authority to bump up their Leadership. A bow or casting item, as stated, also gives them something to do. Decorating an assassin with an assortment of items and turning him loose is also quite fun. You can turn them into Deathmatch/Assassinate wonders.

[Taqwus]

Scouts deserve special mention, for being both cheap and stealthy -- a combination which makes them good for holding things like supply items, extra gems for forays far from labs (say, when you want to ration gem usage), and for carrying things you _might_ want to use in battle like a Staff of Storms; perhaps you have your own archers and don't always want storms, but will be storming a castle with loads of towers soon or something like that.
It's also reasonable to have cheap commanders to ferry reinforcements, or to soak up Seeking Arrows , or to have a few regular troops on 'bodyguard' so the local province defense commanders aren't totally unprotected when the cheap hordes all run forward.

[PvK]

Originally posted by Firebreath:
...
6)Off topic - taking ulm as an example, what difference does it make if I pick units with a sword, say, or an axe or a halberd (ignoring the very minor differences that they bright to attack/defence Ratings) - I assume that some are better against various shield or armoured units, whilst others are less encumbered and so better at militia bashing?
...

Various subtle differences which sometimes make a difference. For Ulm, most of the units come both in Plate and Chainmail Versions. The Plate ones cost more (resources), and are harder to kill, but are easier to hit (defense will be very low, even with a shield), move slowly in combat, and also get fatigued more quickly in combat, so they do better in shorter battles, but not as well as the chainmail troops in long fights where they are outnumbered or the enemies avoid immediate death somehow.

The usual Ulm infantry weapon combos are:

Shielded ones: The shield gives even better anti-missile protection, and protection/defense overall, but it adds encumbrance, reduces speed, and limits the fighter to less powerful single-handed weapons.

Hammer and shield: Good overall baseline weapon mix.

1-handed flail and shield: Advantage against enemies with shields. Not quite as good at defense, and costs a bit more resources.

Unshielded: Without a shield, they're easier to shoot, chop, and kill. But they also move faster, don't get tired as quickly, and cost fewer resources.

Halberd - good damage and length, though more difficult to hit and defend with. Note though that the Ulmish halberdiers are all Guardians, who are elite troops with superior skills, full plate, and fort defense bonus. The Guardian commander is the most skilled Ulmish infantry commander. The Guardians also cost more.

Pike - longest weapons, this gives them an advantage over low-morale enemies, who will have a hard time getting past the pike to attack them. Pikes are also pretty quick to make.

2-handed flail: Gets an advantage against shields, and two attacks per turn. Good against targets without a lot of protection.

Battleaxe: Good damage - good against heavy armor, and takes less resources than flails.

Maul: Almost as good damage as a battleaxe, but not as good defense. Requires the fewest resources, however, so you can equip more troops if they have mauls, and of course:

all Ulmish infantry is potent, at least against typical physical opponents.

One can experiment with various mixes of the Ulm unit types to try to match their strengths to enemy weaknesses. Within their own ranks, one can group them by speed to get them to all arrive at once, or have different types arrive at different times. Shielded troops can be placed forward of the unshielded ones, hopefully to draw arrows to the least vulnerable targets, etc.

PvK

[ March 30, 2004, 22:27: Message edited by: PvK ]

[Yossar]

Originally posted by PvK:
1-handed flail and shield: Advantage against enemies with shields. Not quite as good at defense, and costs a bit more resources.

That's actually a morningstar but close enough. Are you sure the flail gets an advantage vs shields?

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Yossar:
That's actually a morningstar but close enough. Are you sure the flail gets an advantage vs shields?

Morningstars ignore the defense modifier from shields.

[PDF]

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
Id have to question a couple of those answers.

There are commanders which SEEM to have some benefits to handling certain troops. Abyssia with the dragon handlers, Ctis with the lizard handler. Doesnt Pythium have one for hydras? Not sure the names for all of them but I could look them up. The way they read I suspected they help avoid routing though Ive never actually tested it.

Also, combining 2 and 3, I often give standard commanders things like a dragon helm or a bow to give them something to do while "stay behind troops".

The other answers I agree with.

Well, when playing Pythium and Abysia I usually don't bother with the special commanders, I just give the beasts to standard commanders and didn't see any difference. Maybe I've missed stg as you suggest (the special cmdr giving morale boost or stg) ?
And the question was formulated for "normal" cmdr (hoplite, Ulm leaders, etc) where it's certain that there's no special effect associated to the fact that one is named "Hoplite", the other "Hypaspist", etc..

[dzbabi]

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
....like a dragon helm or a bow to give them something to do while "stay behind troops".

The other answers I agree with.

Aeh,
When a comander like some Ulmish Leader have e.g the dragon Helm, wiich command is needed to let him cast it?