Caelum questions, both themes.

[fahdiz]

I have to admit, I'm entranced by Caelum.

I think I'm starting to get the hang of how to use their armies more effectively - I've been having decent success having my archers fire at the closest enemy while having a gaggle of regular troops hold and then attack rearmost. And the distance from which they can attack provinces (and the fact that they can fly over tough provinces altogether, to head for a juicier target) is very, very nice.

However, I am sort of at a loss as to how to capitalize on Caelum's strengths mid-to-late game. Caelum's fighters are not physically very strong, nor well-protected in more temperate climates, nor is their morale high. Their only sacred non-commander units don't fly, and the Return of the Raptors theme doesn't even get Temple Guards...so obviously bless strategies are out of the question. Wingless, for a capitol-only unit, are worse than worthless.

With other nations, I'll occasionally stack higher-morale units in each squad to help with the morale checks...but with Caelum's low-morale regulars, and without good sacred units, this doesn't work very well - at least not in my limited experience.

Summons via the Conjuration path might work well, but those require relatively early research to get decent ones - and it's difficult to get researching when your SC pretender is out helping the weak Caelum armies eke out small victories. Wind Guide is outstanding, but with Storm Generals you are severely limited as to the number of Blizzard Warriors/standard archers you can bring to the party, if you want them to be at *all* protected by a line or two of foot troops on hold...so the benefit tends to be negated somewhat.

I have noticed that my success tends to be better with the Lady of Fortune than with other pretenders, but I still have some trouble taking even small provinces due to retreats (which, with flying units, are *immediate*) and to the low squad-size capabilities of Storm Generals (who I love, but dearly wish had the ability to take 50 troops rather than 25 with them at the start).

How do other Caelum players overcome Caelum's weaknesses and capitalize on their strengths? I think they're my favorite nation thus far (in terms of theme, and in the *theory* of how their armies should work) but I have some serious long-term viability problems using them.

[Peter Ebbesen]

Mammoths are your friends.

[fahdiz]

Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen:
Mammoths are your friends.

Mammoths are nice, but:

(1) Their morale is bloody awful, so they rout and mow down my paper-thin archers, and;
(2) Having even one of them under your commander negates your ability to attack faraway provinces at will.

Coincidentally, (2) is also the reason I don't field a whole lot of Temple Guards...aside from the fact that they are enormously expensive resource-wise for what they do, they take away my entire advantage of surprise and being able to pick and choose indie provinces to attack.

Do you find that Mammoths make up for Caelum's shortcomings in the mid-to-late game as well, or do you really only find them useful during early expansion?

[Zurai]

Originally posted by fahdiz:
Wingless, for a capitol-only unit, are worse than worthless.

Check the morale on Wingless.

With other nations, I'll occasionally stack higher-morale units in each squad to help with the morale checks...but with Caelum's low-morale regulars, and without good sacred units, this doesn't work very well - at least not in my limited experience.

Wingless + Mammoth.

How do other Caelum players overcome Caelum's weaknesses and capitalize on their strengths? I think they're my favorite nation thus far (in terms of theme, and in the *theory* of how their armies should work) but I have some serious long-term viability problems using them.

Don't use fliers exclusively. That's just a losing proposition - as you've pointed out, they're too fragile. Add ground based units such as Mammoth + Wingless squads (I do a 1:2 ratio, usually 5 mammoths 10 wingless), independant archers, and screens of temple guards. Use pure flier units to harrass the enemy while your ground pounders attack the front lines.

I don't get your complaint about not being able to research; Caelum has the absolute cheapest high level mages in the game. High Seraphim are only 175 gold! Buy them! Lots of them! If you took a magic scale, just use the lower ones for researching, they're even more cost effective.

[Gandalf Parker]

If you are trying to use only Caelum troops then mid-late game will be bad for you. Learn to use the independents you can make. Add knights, barbarian chiefs, javelineers. Especially when you are outside the cold of your dominion.

SPeaking of which.. You have sneaky 3-lvl priests who can travel easily (flying). Learn to use them. Keep a ring of them hidden just outside the edges of your empire. PUSH the dominion.

Caelums advantage in mid-late game is having a great support/supply system. You can quickly reinforce troops, gems, magic items, slaves not to mention priests and mages.

The AI of Caelum is an irritant with its use of "Call of the Wind". You should be able to be a better, smarter irritant.

[ March 02, 2004, 17:50: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Hum, I consider Caelum to be one of the best nations out there.

They have access to very synergetic paths, (Water and Air). Mammoth and Wingless go well with Storm/Mist/Arrow Fend.

You use your fliers as harrassers and raiders. Taking out provincea and driving up unrest, while crippling economy.

Mid game you should be using heavy summons in order to suppliment your armies (Sea Trolls, Spring Hawks).

Last but not least, always take Heart of Winter with your dominion with base Caelum, as you fight much better with Cold 3 enviroment. It is also a good idea to use Wolven Winter for large battles (multiple casts will drive down the temperature of a province).

Edit; Usually my initial armies start out with 3 Mammoths, 11 Wingless. Then I add in another Mammoth for every 4 Wingless and try to keep them at that ratio. I rarely have those types of squads break even taking heavy wingless losses, or losing a mammoth or two.

[ March 02, 2004, 18:16: Message edited by: Zen ]

[fahdiz]

Thanks for the replies, folks!

I wasn't so much complaining (although it certainly could have appeared that way, now that I reread my initial post) as I was saying "what am I doing wrong?"

Clearly, my thought that I was supposed to use my flyers as my "main army" was incorrect, and thanks to everyone who pointed out that Wingless and Mammoths make a mighty nice combo. I had neglected to notice the Wingless' sky-high morale.

A question, given your strategies listed below - do you usually build SC pretenders for Caelum, or more research/forging/summoning-oriented pretenders? It sounds like you might be able to do either, based on the use of Wingless/Mammoths and fliers as raiders & harassment.

Thank you all again for the advice - keep it coming if you have other interesting ideas to share! I really do appreciate it.

There are lots of ways to go with Caelum, due to their variety of strengths.

With only summons availiable to make into decent combatants, one common way is to focus on blood (since ID's make such great combatants).

Since Caelum is one of the few nations with access to a Natarajah, they are a common SC (especially since you already have Air and Water items covered for forging).

An important factor for using Caelum is getting a Wizard's Tower, if you plan on using alot of Iceclads (why wouldn't you?). So you can throw up towers quick and effectively every few provinces in order to churn them out. They gather easy and are easy to reinforce.

[Norfleet]

If using a Nataraja SC, be warned that the Nataraja is not immune to the effects of your cold-3 dominion and will suffer large fatigue penalties when fighting in it, unless given a cold resistance item. Combined with his already mediocre base encumberance of 3, your own cold 3 dominion will quickly put him face down in the dirt without cold resist.

[fahdiz]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
If using a Nataraja SC, be warned that the Nataraja is not immune to the effects of your cold-3 dominion and will suffer large fatigue penalties when fighting in it, unless given a cold resistance item. Combined with his already mediocre base encumberance of 3, your own cold 3 dominion will quickly put him face down in the dirt without cold resist.

Good tip, thank you. Luckily I can get a Ring of Frost cranked out with my first mage.

[ March 02, 2004, 20:28: Message edited by: fahdiz ]