Last question (I hope) on magic learning strategies (Machaka or similar multi-path)?

[onomastikon]

First of all, thanks so much for all of you answering my questions I have been posting here.

I hope this is the Last really newbie one. OK here goes:

Learning which magic schools to invest in and when, and how to set up my Pretender (rainbow, same-as-nation-mages, whatever) has been getting better, especially with the couple of races I have been trying and having some success with (namely: Pangaia, Man, and Ulm). I also think these may be the "easier" races to do ok with (my newbie impression) since the magic is straightforward and fairly limited in scope (two paths). I can deal with that.

I am failing at Machaka. Perhaps someone can help?

What I find really hard to deal with is the magic being so broad but not potent. Pangaia has its main mage having 2 nature and 3 earth, plus 1 random -- simple, and high. But Machaka has most of its mages spread out with ONE point in THREE paths (exception: black sorceror). I find this very tough, because now it seems I have to rely on my Pretender to forge items they cant even MAKE in order to get them the +1 boost in a path so that they can forge the items themselves AND/OR forge items to give them the +1 boost to cast those "power of" spells giving them the +1 path they need to cast other spells.
Otherwise, one point in a path just doesnt get me far. What is the point of having all those great varied paths when you have no power in them?

This of course is NOT a rhetorical question: can anyone help me out with their experience here?

It doesnt have to be Machaka, any multi-but-weak-path race tips would be good, but I sure would like to play them, they seem so.... interesting. I kind of like the tribal motif.

thank you

[Gandalf Parker]

Attack all provinces that say they have amazons in them.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by onomastikon:
Machaka has most of its mages spread out with ONE point in THREE paths (exception: black sorceror).

You forgot the 190 gold Sorceror - 2 nature, 1 ?. There aren't that many nations that can get mages with 2-3 levels in 3 different paths.

it seems I have to rely on my Pretender to forge items they cant even MAKE in order to get them the +1 boost in a path so that they can forge the items themselves AND/OR forge items to give them the +1 boost to cast those "power of" spells giving them the +1 path they need to cast other spells.

Sorcerors can forge Thistle Maces (+1 nature)
Black Sorcs can forge Earth Boots (+1 earth)
All mages can forge Fire Skulls (+1 fire)
Black Sorcs with a Fire Skull can forge Flame Helmets (+1 fire)

That's without even considering random magic picks. Quite a decent list I'd say.

[onomastikon]

Oh right fire skull -- but that's a "very" powerful item, right? So would you suggest going "construction" all the way for a long time first -- and use the casters for research and searching only? And rely on spiders till then?

Attack all provinces that say they have amazons in them

I dont understand.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by onomastikon:
Oh right fire skull -- but that's a "very" powerful item, right?

That's a Construction 6 item, yes, if that's what you mean. There aren't that many accessible items earlier.

So would you suggest going "construction" all the way for a long time first -- and use the casters for research and searching only?

You still get the Earth Boots, Mace and (if you find a +fire Black Sorc) Flame Helmet at Construction 4. Add Skull Staves if you find a +death Sorc or Black Sorc, or the hero Sorceress. You don't find many other nations that can build so many +skill items at that research level.

Re research: Witch doctors are cheap and good researchers, usually I don't have problems with pushing research with Machaka, and actually I think it's one of the best races in that area. The other mages are free to support troops.

And rely on spiders till then?

I prefer to rely on hoplites and bowmen. When I recruit spiders, it's more for the fun than for anything else.

[NTJedi]

onomastikon...

if your main concern is forging items then have your pretender start with at least 4 earth magic. The spell 'Forge of the Ancients' will allow your commanders to forge just about any item.
Machaka is my favorite race so far too... the biggest weakness I see is their province defense sucks.

If you're pretender is built for bless effects, go ahead and build some black hunters, if he is not built for bless effects, stay with hoplites (Machaka has the best hoplites in the game) and archers. You are forced, because you have no access to communion to rely on forged items to increase your magic on your mages.

Spells that work well with Machaka:
Magma Eruption (Put Earth Boots on a Black Sorcerer)
Blight
Relief (Sorcerer with Nature Stick)
Summon Earthpower
Reanimate Archers (Black Sorcerers random is in death)

Eagle Eyes/ Combat spell (For Sorcerers)

There are more ideas in Alex's Tome of Knowledge as well.

[Windreaper]

Magma Eruption is my favourite with Machaka, too. Blindness is another spell you should learn to rely on, too (no better way to stop hordes of rampaging Niefel giants).

As for units I wouldn't rely on Black Hunters too much. They're too costly for what they do. Ok, they're nice with nature 9 but the spiders' mr5 let them down later in the game. Hoplites with some cheap shortbow archers and maybe some spider knights (I actually find these guys quite good for the cost, web spit is rather nice) make up the majority of my armies.

Alex's strategy of using black sorcerers with invulnerability and fire shield as mini-supercombatants seems rather nice, too. Got to try that one out. In any case, alteration should be your field of research in the early game (gets you those nice protection spells, especially mass protection (!), and probably the best fire combat spell - incineration). Getting construction to high levels early is a good idea, too (actually, I'd consider rushing for const 4 right away). Your mages should be mostly researching for the first 10-20 turns anyway so I'd invest in evocation later.

Example research path:
Construction 4 (critical items)
Alteration 6 (Mass protection)
Enchantment 6 (Relief) or Conjuration 6 (Trolls, Lamias) or Evocation 6 (Magma Eruption)

This is of course a general guideline but that's what I'd go for with Machaka. Depends on the situation, of course.

As for pretender. Since Machaka is so versatile magically it's hard to decide on a good design. Some sort of support mage would probably fit the bill quite nicely. A Prince of Death would be a rather cheap option and would compliment your existing magic quite well (your guys got 1 magic pick and can get more through randoms but you really want to have 4 levels for early sitesearching) and would also allow you to have decent scales. I'd probably go magic 3 and do some heavy research with the witch doctors.

Example pretender:

Prince of Death:

Magic: 4 Death

Scales:

Order: +3
Productivity: +3 (you'll want the resources for the hoplites)
Heat: +2 (preferred)
Growth: +0/+1
Luck: +0/+1 (either this or Growth or additionally 2 extra levels of death magic)
Magic: +3 (you got 90gp research 5 guy but since you're going to buy many witch doctors anyway why not boost your research by nearly 50%).

40admin castle (80pts).

0 points left over

[ January 22, 2004, 07:04: Message edited by: Windreaper ]

Windreaper's suggestions are all good. Though in my personal experience, picking up a middleweight air pretender is more to my playstyle. It allows you a little more versatility with easy access to flying units and site searching. Of course you can still use your PoD as a Province grabber early on, which is also very nice. Definitely look at heavy order and production scales and magic are all very nice.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Zen:
Definitely look at heavy order and production scales and magic are all very nice.

I agree on order and production, but magic 0/+1 is good enough for me, as buying more gives diminishing returns:

scale - RP cost - delta (assuming Witch Doctor)
-3 ...... 45 ......
-2 ...... 30 ...... (-15)
-1 ...... 22.5 .... (-7.5)
+0 ...... 18 ...... (-4.5)
+1 ...... 15 ...... (-3)
+2 ...... 12.85 ... (-2.25)
+3 ...... 11.25 ... (-1.6)
++ ...... 10 ...... (-1.25)

It's even slightly worse when you factor in experience (shift the costs a row down to get the RP cost for a 1-star WD).