Petition for the Marginon CoTS Theme

I'd like to Petition for the next patch the Starting spell for Conquerors of the Sea (Marginon Theme) be changed to something either usable by their base mages or at least thematic.

If you're taking suggestions, I might suggest to fit thematically for those studying the starts and navigaton:

Wind Guide
Light of the Northern Star
Mistform

There are more appropriate ones I think in the Water sphere, but they can't be cast by any of the national mages (something I feel should be a starting spell).

Or better yet, you make a new spell for them so it doesn't change any ingame balance.

I'll add, (in case IW Forgot with all the other requests) the petition to change

Vanheim (Midgard) Theme. They currently have as their starting spell: Ghost Wolves (3A) again, with no way to cast it in the beginning. Perhaps a modified Version (that does the same thing, but with a lower casting cost) could be added to Midgard if the wolves spell is wanted.

T'ien Ch'i (Base and Barbarian Kings) Theme. Celestial Soldiers, Celstial Servant and Flight (2A) require more what is initially availiable to TC. Perhaps an adjustment could be made either to the base mage (Celstial Master) or the spel requirements. The 1 Random is rough because it's not a Random Elemental, it's a Random All so you have 1 in 8 chance of getting 1 Air or 1 Earth to cast your national specific spell.

[ January 16, 2004, 04:30: Message edited by: Zen ]

[Kristoffer O]

CotS - Good point.
Midg�rd - discussed earlier. Phantasmal warrior is probably better.
T'ien Ch'i - intentional as the celestials are quite powerful. Might be confusing for newbs though.

[HJ]

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:

T'ien Ch'i - intentional as the celestials are quite powerful. Might be confusing for newbs though.

If the intention was to limit access to them, isn't the access already very limited by the cost vs. initial gem income, them costing 20 air while the home province income is only 2 air? Even the celestial servant is available only after 4 turns. Air sites are also not that common (at least from what I've noticed), and you surely won't waste any gems on Auspex to search for them while you're waiting to summon celestials in the beginning. I don't know whether the intention was to do a double limitation (both high cost vs. initial income and waiting for the random), but it is something to consider if it was not.

[ January 16, 2004, 06:10: Message edited by: HJ ]

[Pocus]

Any thoughts on Ulm BF, Kristoffer? Instead of a vampire count, a summon 1x vampire would be less abusable.

[Saber Cherry]

Originally posted by Pocus:
Any thoughts on Ulm BF, Kristoffer? Instead of a vampire count, a summon 1x vampire would be less abusable.

Vampire counts are sooo cool. The thralls, and so forth... I love it! However, yes, may be a tad overpowered. But vampires would be too weak - I think maybe Vampire Barons, a notch down from Vampire Counts, could be a good start spell. The fact that you have to design your pretender around the start spell or not use it at all is quite important, so it better be good enough to shape your pretender.

...If Vampire Barons had less HP (by 25%), less MR, attack, defense, and strength (by 2 each), less magic, (say, 2 blood) and needed less magic to summon (3 blood, no death) but still cost, say, 36 bloodslaves... and in exchange generated thralls at double the rate (still quite slow)... they would be way less abusable as supercombattants, but still very fun and thematic.

That's what I would do=)

-Cherry

P.S. Wait - that would make them wimps=) Maybe just reduce mr, and str by 1 each, and HP by 25%. They aren't THAT strong!

[ January 16, 2004, 07:30: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

I concur with those who stated the limitation is the high gem cost per production.

I don't see any overbearing balance issues with T'ien Ch'i that they would be *unbalanced* if suddenly they can cast their own spells. It's not as if suddenly they are going to have the gems to make it happen.

You are forcing people to either A.) Make up to 8 (just for simple purposes) CM before they can cast the spells. B.) Take away more points from the variety of Pretender/Scale design by putting 2 Air and/or 1 Earth and 1 Astral.

Now as I've played TC quite a bit in all it's themes it is by far my favorite thematic nation and it is far from overpowering.

For christs sake, It's only 2 themes cannot use it's TC specific special ability of Conscription.

So while I agree that balance should be noted, this is not what I feel the case with TC, they already have the slowest commanders of all, crazy resource/gold costs that are lowest of the dogpile for efficency, extremely vulnerable to Magic Duel, a nearly useless set of national units in horsearchers (hopefully soon to be fixed), and their National Specific Pretender is by one of the Ostermans own words "May be underpowered for the cost".

I don't think they need to be left without their national summons on the off chance that one CM you happened to recruit gets hit by a Seeking Arrow, Fires from Afar or some other random event and make you recruit through another pile in hopes for it.

I'm sorry if this sounds rantish, but such simple disregard incensed my sense of fairness.

[ January 16, 2004, 11:50: Message edited by: Zen ]

While limiting it so that you can't cast the spells with national mages may be appropriate in some circumstances. Sanguine Heritage, Illwinter, Summon Wraith Consul.

Celestial Soldiers costs 20 Air for 5 Sacred Soldiers, that while strong, takes initially 10 Turns (with TC's income) to make and can't be transformed into a Super Combatant or affect the entire world.

I don't even want to talk about the Celestial Servant. I appreciate him thematically, but he's the farthest from me saying "I got a Celestial Servant by turn 5, phear me!" about.

I've thought alot about what exactly to do about the Counts in BF. I don't want to cripple the Themes thematic glory (Yay vampires) but keeping it balanced. I don't think you can make Starting spells require a specific research level (Kristoffer might know) before they become active.

Maybe you could make a non combat Version of the Vampire called a "Sanguine Hunter" or "Sanguine Sacrifice" that has a wait period (like 4 turns, or 5 turns, depending on the balance issue) before it transforms into the Vampire Count like how a normal unit transforms into a Werewolf.

It's kind of a workaround for starting spells, but it might still work if you can't set the starting spell at a research level (like Blood 4).

It's an idea to slow the speed, but still get the original intented unit.

Edit: You could even name the unit "Topor" or "Coffin" or something, give it decent defense/protection so it can't be killed by breathing on it.

[ January 16, 2004, 12:26: Message edited by: Zen ]

[Cainehill]

Thought I'd bring this thread back up to the top, since the 2.13 patch (while bringing back the wonderful Great Warlock and Jotun Skratti as pretenders), didn't address the CotS issues.

Please, Illwinter - consider updating the starting spell for Marignon CotS. Currently, the spell is Holy Pyre, and is not castable by any recruitable national mage without either using fire gems, or boosting items, as discussed in this thread.

But thanks for the Skratti and Great Warlock!