Carrion Dragon (Pangaea)

Gandalf Parker · #1 January 13th, 2004, 05:19 PM

OH WOW. Are you sure this is balanced? What a Pangaea boost. Especially for Carrion Woods theme.

Ok it goes like this. This is a Dragon which turns into a Carrion Lord. The dragon doesnt breath or fly but does have alot of hit points.

OK here are the big things I see. The Carrion Lord form DOES have the ability to cast the carrion spells, such as creating another Carrion Lord. That means you dont have to purchase a Panic Apostate for that. It gives you a jump on creating manikins.

Also, the Carrion Lord sneaks. I often wondered what it would be like to have a dragon suddenly appear in someones internal provinces. The Green Dragons druid form doesnt sneak (tho the form he emulates does). With this dragon you can sneak somewhere then change form. Heehee

OK it cant fly and it cant breath. But the dragon can wear a helm and there are Versions which give both abilities. Or you could give flying boots and a bLasting helm of some sort to the Carrion Lord form in order to reach some capital far across the map quickly. Then change form and still have the bLasting helm tho losing the flying (I think the boots disappear)

Anyway, anyone messing around with Pangaea I would definetly try this new pretender. Thanks Illwinter

apoger · #2 January 13th, 2004, 05:25 PM

The CW theme isn't great and the new dragon isn't all that hot except for getting a jump on the carrion spells. I see no issue with this at all.

PvK · #3 January 13th, 2004, 06:01 PM

You may be a better Doms 2 balance judge than I am at this point Gandalf, but I'd consider:

How many setup points does it cost?

Why is it steathy? Is that a "Carrion Woods" thing (hides in woods)? (BTW, it seems like many/most ordinary animal-type (especially fliers) units should probably be stealthy that are not, no?)

Does it have a head slot only in humanoid form?

Does it turn into dragon form as soon as the humanoid form is injured, like a living dragon?

What's its MR (e.g., is the large-target dragon form liable to get bLasted by a couple of cheap holy-2 priests)?

PvK

Nagot Gick Fel · #4 January 13th, 2004, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by apoger:
The CW theme isn't great

Damn right, and it'll never be great as it is. Many themes appear weak now, but it's not an inherent weakness of these themes - it's only a scale balance issue. Carrion Woods, OTOH, requires the player to waste 160 points on Growth and gets absolutely no advantage from it. Even worse, invading armies get a supply bonus from the CW dominion - not great in depleted provinces, but still better than the 30% malus you get when invading, say, the Ashen Empire.

I remember JO or KO or JK arguing that Growth is thematic in the case of CW - but then why isn't it thematic for the standard Pangaea? And the destructive dominion isn't supposed to kill the pop, just reflect the fact that manikins don't pay taxes - but then, why the corpses? Nonsense.

So please give Growth +1 to Carrion Woods if you want, but don't charge 160 points for it.

johan osterman · #5 January 13th, 2004, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:

quote:
Originally posted by apoger:
The CW theme isn't great

Damn right, and it'll never be great as it is. Many themes appear weak now, but it's not an inherent weakness of these themes - it's only a scale balance issue. Carrion Woods, OTOH, requires the player to waste 160 points on Growth and gets absolutely no advantage from it. Even worse, invading armies get a supply bonus from the CW dominion - not great in depleted provinces, but still better than the 30% malus you get when invading, say, the Ashen Empire.

I remember JO or KO or JK arguing that Growth is thematic in the case of CW - but then why isn't it thematic for the standard Pangaea? And the destructive dominion isn't supposed to kill the pop, just reflect the fact that manikins don't pay taxes - but then, why the corpses? Nonsense.

So please give Growth +1 to Carrion Woods if you want, but don't charge 160 points for it.

I don't think anyone has claimed that the destructive dominion is not supposed to kill human pop, it is. The growth requirment is intended to suggest a wild and uncontrolled and lethal growth, hostile to humans.

Gandalf Parker · #6 January 13th, 2004, 06:23 PM

OK I wasnt completely serious about the balance. I didnt think it was all that unbalancing for a theme that was slightly behind the curve already. But I think Carrion Woods is playable as it is. It just has to be played in a forced expansion mode.

[ January 13, 2004, 16:24: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

NTJedi · #7 January 13th, 2004, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by apoger:
The CW theme isn't great and the new dragon isn't all that hot except for getting a jump on the carrion spells. I see no issue with this at all.

I would have to agree

Kristoffer O · #8 January 13th, 2004, 08:14 PM

Hmm, perhaps linking reanimation to growth would justify a high growth scale. Then growth would always be 3. Now its always 2.

No big difference in practice, but it might make you feel good when you pay the design points

Nagot Gick Fel · #9 January 13th, 2004, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by johan osterman:
I don't think anyone has claimed that the destructive dominion is not supposed to kill human pop, it is.

My mistake, you're absolutely right. It seems my memory isn't what it once was, I probably spent too much time playing with that Void Gate

Chris Byler · #10 January 13th, 2004, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
Hmm, perhaps linking reanimation to growth would justify a high growth scale. Then growth would always be 3. Now its always 2.

No big difference in practice, but it might make you feel good when you pay the design points

Isn't reanimation already linked to growth for some high level enchantments (Enchanted Woods etc.)?

Why not give CW one of those as a national spell? If Niefelheim can have Illwinter...

Anyway, I think part of the problem with CW is that the capitol-only troops are difficult to use with a rotting core. Why not remove capitol restrictions from them? Or provide a +resource site at the capitol that allows them to be built even after the population has been killed by the destructive dominion?

An even more radical idea: the dominion is dangerous to HUMANS, but CW's own population isn't human. So it only kills outside your borders (something similar to Desert Sun, Heart of Winter, Restless Worshippers). But that gets into the whole issue of how, when Caelum conquers a province of 25,000 Abysians, they all start to prefer cold +3. I don't think there's really a good solution to that.