Tuatha Race

[Keir Maxwell]

The Sidhe are dear to my heart - my central character in Ultima Online was a Sidhe. So I've been keen to get something going with the race and while I'm not convinced I can't do better with Van here goes what I'm playing with right now.
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"The Quick or the Dead"

Blue Dragon, Water 9. Dominion 6.
Sloth 1, luck 1, magic 1.
Fortified City.

The key unit is the Daoine Sidhe warriors who work a treat with quikness and a def of 19 when blessed. The Cu Sidhe make good fast build supporting troops when you have extra gold and few resources - use with care though. For archer bait I use the starting troops plus build more axemen when needed

For early commanders I use my initial Castallien as my prophet and Sidhe Champions and monks. I tried Sidhe Lords but didn't feel I could justify the extra cost.

The Blue Dragon researches up to alteration 2 for quikness and then heads off to help the expansion. Might be better sometimes to head straight out but its seems tidier to get quickness first.

Difficult to get a good feel for the expansion rate as I'm still getting the hang of minimising casualties and what exactly you have to be afraid of. You can beat some normally hard to beat provinces but are vunerable to high attack troops and Xbow. My cleanest expansion saw me well ahead of the +1 province per turn by the 10th turn (indies 5) but with a pitiful gold income due to starting in the wastes at the bottom of the Aran map. As a consequence I didn't have enough gold to buy defenses to discourage the AI from attacking and got lured into an early war.

Overall the race looks fairly promising though the troops require great care early and the right magic support later to get the best out of them - anti-archery is important and the race has rthe right paths. A race than can get a decent start, has access to air magic, and has magic scale +1 can't be all bad.

One alternative is to run sloth2, order1, and make more use of the Cu Sidhe.

Cheers

Keir

[ November 26, 2003, 04:41: Message edited by: Keir Maxwell ]

[Jasper]

I tried something similar and didn't really get much mileage out of it.

Blue Dragon, Water 9, Dominion 4.
Order 2, Luck 1, Magic 1
Fortress

I'd prefer the castle, but it left me with Order 1 and 24 pts left over.

Dominion is a bit low for mass producing sacred troops. I was hoping cheap temples would help here, plus Dominion is expensive for Pretenders starting with 1. Perhaps I'd be better off tweaking to get higher dominion.

I had several general problems. The Sidhe warriors are great at staying alive, but not very potent! They're also fairly vulnerable to missiles, without anything really stellar to use as missile bait.

I had better sucess in a short test using the Red Dragon instead. The sidhe were still fairly surviveable, but now had some potency. The Red dragon also worked better for expansion, due to a combination of a strong Fire Shield, and not missing attacks. The Blue dragon finished off it's opponents too slow, and thus got hurt more often.

The magic scale isn't really stellar as Tuatha's cheapest mage is 140. Plus I felt compelled to take Order, which minimizes any benefit from luck. My main fear with this race is that it's a little income poor, and while it's troops can be effective against independents and AI, it feels like it has weaknesses that real opponents would capitolize on. It also doesn't really have good troops outside of the Sidhe.

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by Jasper:
I tried something similar and didn't really get much mileage out of it.

A very different race to play I suspect despite some similarities.

The big difference between our races is the dominion - dom4 is just too low for my liking and unable to meaningfully use the Cu Sidhe so significantly slower than Dom6. Don't underestimate the extra speed the Cu Sidhe (1 resource!) give you if you can grab some decent gold producing provinces early. Also with dom 4 you will only be able to build 4 Sidhe a turn - thats not enough. I'm not sure 6 is enough in the long term.

I was actually very impressed with the kill speed of the quickened Sidhe and in my tests tried walking straight on into HC provinces early with decent success. I suspect it could be a critical mass for the job question. Obviously fireweapons etc is quicker at killing but producing so few each turn I want to try and keep them alive as much as possible. I'm not saying the Red Dragon is not a good idea its just doesn't fit my view of Sidhe.

Regarding arrow catching I deploy the army a bit back from the start point (varies according to range of missiles opponent has) with Axe on hold and attack in the middle and Sidhe on attack on one or both flank - both catches attackers better and keeps them away from the Axemen. I have found this approach satisfactory as long as I leave behind the big Xbow provinces!

140pt researchers who bring in 5 points are decent - ~30pts per research. And then what happens if you find sages? Even if you don't find sages you are sure to find some independent mages who research well and free up the Sidhe for war. The key is that you have a decent starting speed and the ongoing power that comes with the bless effect on the Sidhe without having taken a serious drain scale. This means good things in the long term compared to many races which arn't much faster earlier.

Did you research quickness for the Blue Dragon when you tried it Jasper? I haven't had an affliction yet with the Dragon and as its always operating with Sidhe, and often taking out archers etc at the back, its not a high risk pretender strategy - though there obviously is a risk.

The biggest thing I found with this race is that you really need to practice hard to get a good feel of what independants to attack when. Get this right and I believe this race could be competitive.

cheers

Keir

[LordArioch]

Oh master race designers ...what's this about using 5 research mages for 140...why not just build bards instead? They're only 75 and get 4 research...their upkeep isn't halved by sacred, but they're nice for early research and some simple protection spells on your sidhe do wonders, raising their protection up to a very respectable 20. Also the bard is a spy and a standard of course...you lose the air magic and the upkeep is the same, but early bards leave a lot more money for sidhe.

I seemed to be doing decently with my tuatha, even though I had a light bless and relied mainly on longbows for growth. And then all three adjacent AI players attacked over a period of three turns and the game went downhill rather quickly. My armies can't stand that long against joint enemy strikes on every border province.

[ November 26, 2003, 06:58: Message edited by: LordArioch ]

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by LordArioch:
Oh master race designers ...what's this about using 5 research mages for 140...why not just build bards instead?

They're only 75 and get 4 research...their upkeep isn't halved by sacred, but they're nice for early research and some simple protection spells on your sidhe do wonders, raising their protection up to a very respectable 20. Also the bard is a spy and a standard of course...you lose the air magic and the upkeep is the same, but early bards leave a lot more money for sidhe.

The Bards are indeed very cute and I would build them early except they can neither bless nor lead an army and the barrier on building Sidhe is resources early not gold - sloth1 or 2 are what I've tried. While Sidhe Champions cost in resources they are better value than Daoine Sidhe per resource. You would not have had to worry about this so much relying longbows.

Building one commmander a turn early its a monk for bless plus moving a few troops around or a Sidhe Champion for leading armies and fighting. If the golds coming in nicely the Champion helps research quickness while they wait for a new army to assemble. Another bonus to building Sidhe Champions early is they quickly get into the hall of fame and get a heroic ability.

However you have made a very good point I overlooked - if you don't find Sages early build Bards when it comes time to invest in a real research program research - say sometime after turn 10. This is particularily strong with an even higher magic scale and I can see why you love Bards. The fact that I can't find room to build them early is one of the sacrifices in my present design.

I seemed to be doing decently with my tuatha, even though I had a light bless and relied mainly on longbows for growth.

I'm not of the opinion that Tuatha need powerful bless effects and as you say in time you can turn the Daoine Sidhe into super troops with magic. I'm just having fun with bless effects right now because they weren't in Dom1.

If only Man got the Lady of Fortune as a pretender! With the enforced luck on the Tuatha theme its sorta sad we can't try and maximise the return from luck plus get the added security of extra fortune in our home province. She would also be a great bless effect pretender. I haven't yet discovered the appeal of the Mother of the Tuathas who is perhaps why Man don't get the Lady of Fortune. I wish the Mother of Tuathas was not so good and more affordable as Tuatha doesn't have alot of room to move when it comes to design points.

cheers

Keir

[ November 26, 2003, 08:55: Message edited by: Keir Maxwell ]

[Jasper]

Originally posted by LordArioch:
Oh master race designers ...what's this about using 5 research mages for 140...why not just build bards instead?

D'oh! I had it lodged in my mind that the Bards were for the default theme only. This definitely improves the value of magic, although as Keir says you're still better off with Champions early on when you have just one fort.

[Jasper]

Originally posted by Keir Maxwell:
A very different race to play I suspect despite some similarities.

The big difference between our races is the dominion - dom4 is just too low for my liking and unable to meaningfully use the Cu Sidhe so significantly slower than Dom6. Don't underestimate the extra speed the Cu Sidhe (1 resource!) give you if you can grab some decent gold producing provinces early. Also with dom 4 you will only be able to build 4 Sidhe a turn - thats not enough. I'm not sure 6 is enough in the long term.

I'm not concentrating solely on the Sidhe, as longbows can be usefull for expansion too. 4 Sidhe + 1 Champion is 280, which is more than I can afford early on anyway. 10 temples will let you go to 6 Sidhe + Lord later on is 490, which is plenty to spend.

Basically, I made the trade off to get less Sidhe, but more income and hence stuff overall. I effectively decided not to use the Cu weren't as well.

I was actually very impressed with the kill speed of the quickened Sidhe and in my tests tried walking straight on into HC provinces early with decent success. I suspect it could be a critical mass for the job question.

Hmmmm. You may be right about the critical mass, as I may have been a bit too aggressive. I only tried it briefly, but the extra power seemed to do ok with less Sidhe.

Regarding arrow catching...

That's basically what I do too. I typically prefer to have somewith a little more armor do it though. I suspect this may be much less effective against players however, as it'll be harder to predict where their archers are.

Did you research quickness for the Blue Dragon when you tried it Jasper? I haven't had an affliction yet with the Dragon and as its always operating with Sidhe, and often taking out archers etc at the back, its not a high risk pretender strategy - though there obviously is a risk.

Ahhhh. I did have Quickness, but had the dragon operating alone, taking on moderate to weak provinces. The Blue dragon seems much less suited to this than the Red Dragon. The Green Dragon seems even better due to Regeneration, although it requires more research and I haven't tried it with Tuatha. I'm not sure whether or not Nature 9 bless would be effective on Sidhe...

[ November 26, 2003, 10:23: Message edited by: Jasper ]

[Jasper]

Originally posted by Keir Maxwell:
If only Man got the Lady of Fortune as a pretender! With the enforced luck on the Tuatha theme its sorta sad we can't try and maximise the return from luck plus get the added security of extra fortune in our home province. She would also be a great bless effect pretender. I haven't yet discovered the appeal of the Mother of the Tuathas who is perhaps why Man don't get the Lady of Fortune. I wish the Mother of Tuathas was not so good and more affordable as Tuatha doesn't have alot of room to move when it comes to design points.

I've was lamenting not having the Lady of Fortune with Pangaea too, although she doesn't really fit for them.

I don't much care for the Mother of Tuatha's either. Her Attack/Defense aren't terribly high, Man has plenty of Air Magic already, and the Mirror image isn't a big deal without Stealth. If she had stealth like all of the other Sidhe she would be cool!

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by Jasper:
I'm not concentrating solely on the Sidhe, as longbows can be usefull for expansion too.
[. . .]
I effectively decided not to use the Cu.

Funny thing is I've decide the best usage for my starting Longbows is to but them out the front in the first battle and save myself 5gps a turn.

Perhaps I should give longbow based expansion a go but they just combo so badly with the Sidhe. I want to start building Sidhe early to get enough for later. A large part of my plan is not to lose Sidhe but rather to steadily build an uber army or two.

Its important only to take the provinces that matter - you can even stealth past a blocking province to take a gold rich province with a Daoine and Cu Sidhe force.

I am hoping that the Cu Sidhe are the key to accelerating early expansion as they are thematically suberb, oustandingly fast on the battle board, really easy to build, have a good defense when blessed, and good offense - especially with quickness. I definitly don't want any Longbow near my Cu Sidhe.

Ahhhh. I did have Quickness, but had the dragon operating alone, taking on moderate to weak provinces. The Blue dragon seems much less suited to this than the Red Dragon. The Green Dragon seems even better due to Regeneration, although it requires more research and I haven't tried it with Tuatha. I'm not sure whether or not Nature 9 bless would be effective on Sidhe...

Berserk is not going to work well as the key with the Sidhe (or Van) is not to get hit. Once you get hit and lose your glamour they generally die fast - especially with a lowered defense.

Its a real shame you can't set a target for "attack one turn" or you could go quickness, change shape, attack one turn rearmost, fire, fire, and fry the rear zones without danger of friendly fire. As it is I can't get the Blue Dragon to use its breath weapon - just seems to ignore the fire order. What am I doing wrong?

cheers

Keir

[Chris Byler]

Originally posted by Keir Maxwell:

quote:

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Originally posted by Jasper:
I'm not concentrating solely on the Sidhe, as longbows can be usefull for expansion too.
[. . .]
I effectively decided not to use the Cu.

Funny thing is I've decide the best usage for my starting Longbows is to but them out the front in the first battle and save myself 5gps a turn.

Perhaps I should give longbow based expansion a go but they just combo so badly with the Sidhe. I want to start building Sidhe early to get enough for later. A large part of my plan is not to lose Sidhe but rather to steadily build an uber army or two.

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Build two armies. One province a turn isn't enough.

Anyway, Man national longbows have better precision than indies; I haven't had that much trouble with friendly fire yet. (Of course I paired them with some HI mercs and used them early, before I could afford a substantial force of Daoine Sidhe.)

Currently I have some axemen/longspears in front, Daoine throwing javelins (they will automatically close after that) and longbows behind that. Although there might be some friendly fire to the infantry, the Daoine are unlikely to take much if any; and they're positioned to move into close combat if the infantry rout. That way most of my losses come from the cheap units, and the Daoine keep racking up exp from javelin kills.

Its important only to take the provinces that matter - you can even stealth past a blocking province to take a gold rich province with a Daoine and Cu Sidhe force.

I am hoping that the Cu Sidhe are the key to accelerating early expansion as they are thematically suberb, oustandingly fast on the battle board, really easy to build, have a good defense when blessed, and good offense - especially with quickness. I definitly don't want any Longbow near my Cu Sidhe.

I haven't used the Cu yet - it seems to me that they would be most effective massed, which seems like it would require a Sidhe Lord or Tuatha prophet for Divine Blessing. Since I decided to make my initial Castellan my initial prophet (I like this more in Dom II because it takes longer to save up for that high level priest you might have wanted to prophetize in Dom I - especially if you also want mercs or troops for early expansion) and he hasn't died yet, Priest 4 isn't yet an option.

On the other hand, I don't have a water blessing either (Nature 9 White Bull, worked great until he tried to take a province by himself the same turn 15 Jotuns had the same idea. Even a 200 hp, regenerating, size 6 trampler has a bit of trouble trampling 15 Jotuns to death by himself.)

I wouldn't expect water to do the Sidhe much good - their defense is already so high that they're only going to get hit by (a) people who get a really lucky attack roll (I don't think you can squeeze much more out of that) or (b) missiles. On the other hand they have decent prot, so with a nature blessing, a lot of missiles will just make them mad (and with regen, are unlikely to cause afflictions or bring them down by accumulating damage). But then, I'm not a fan of defense in general - too easy to negate it with a good roll, and beating defense by 1 gets you a hit for full damage.

Of course the nature blessing is kind of wasted against Jotunheim, but against anything else I think it'll work well.

Air wouldn't be bad either - maybe I'll try the Mother of Tuathas. (Although I heard someone else post that she wasn't stealthy - is this a bug? Allfather gets the full set of Van abilities including sailing...)

Earth could be interesting too - reinvig for all your mages (except bards), and +4 prot for the Sidhe if you take it to 9. Wouldn't do the Cu much good though. Earth is also a good choice for combat gods (IMO) for invulnerability (and depending on your targets, blade wind).

quote:

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Ahhhh. I did have Quickness, but had the dragon operating alone, taking on moderate to weak provinces. The Blue dragon seems much less suited to this than the Red Dragon. The Green Dragon seems even better due to Regeneration, although it requires more research and I haven't tried it with Tuatha. I'm not sure whether or not Nature 9 bless would be effective on Sidhe...

Berserk is not going to work well as the key with the Sidhe (or Van) is not to get hit. Once you get hit and lose your glamour they generally die fast - especially with a lowered defense.

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Berserking lowers their defense to about 16 - still a tough target for most units - and raises their prot to, IIRC, 17. Add regeneration to that and I haven't seen them "die fast".

10 Daoine and a Champion beat about 15 Jotuns with only 3 losses (some were militia though). I think one of the Jotuns might have made it off the field. Although I'm not sure how many actually went berserk - but Jotuns are the worst case for a nature blessing anyway, since they will usually kill even armored units in one hit. I've never lost a Daoine to indies with nature 9, or even gotten an affliction yet.

I think you underestimate the survivability of the Sidhe.

Its a real shame you can't set a target for "attack one turn" or you could go quickness, change shape, attack one turn rearmost, fire, fire, and fry the rear zones without danger of friendly fire. As it is I can't get the Blue Dragon to use its breath weapon - just seems to ignore the fire order. What am I doing wrong?

Maybe it can't use fire order because it is in close combat?


A couple more comments about the Tuatha theme:

Daoine Sidhe have great precision and above average strength. Javelins in general are pretty effective in Dom II, but Sidhe javelins are really impressive. I've killed Jotuns with them. Also, Sidhe Champions, Lords and Tuathas are really impressive with magic bows because of their high precision - and they can cast both Eagle Eyes and Aim (which stack!). Not so coincidentally, some of the best bows are Air.


Last of the Tuatha shouldn't get Brangwen the Blind One - she's an Avalon witch. Aren't there any Tuatha heroes for them to get instead?