If it aint broke, don't fix it

Zapmeister · #1 November 24th, 2003, 02:02 AM

I'm referring to the scales, of course. The interesting choices in this area available in Dom1 have gone. This element of the game has been effectively removed, as all players make very similar choices.

No-one I've heard, including vets that probably have more playing experience than the devs, thought there was anything wrong with the Dom1 scales.

Please, devs. Run, do not walk, to the Dom1 source code, extract the implementation of scales and apply them with a patch to Dom2.

Everything else you've done with Dom2 is great - thanks for making it.

Sammual · #2 November 24th, 2003, 02:10 AM

Other than Luck (The events need work) I like the scales and use different scales for different races. Not that I am a master at the game (Starting my first Multi-player game now).

Sammual

Graeme Dice · #3 November 24th, 2003, 02:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Zapmeister:
No-one I've heard, including vets that probably have more playing experience than the devs, thought there was anything wrong with the Dom1 scales.

Other than the fact that it made order almost useless once you had some patrollers in your home province?

Quote:

Please, devs. Run, do not walk, to the Dom1 source code, extract the implementation of scales and apply them with a patch to Dom2.

Which would make the order scale completely useless. You can't set tax rates over 100% without losing population, so positive order would be reduced to essentially zero utility.

Keir Maxwell · #4 November 24th, 2003, 02:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:

quote:
Originally posted by Zapmeister:
No-one I've heard, including vets that probably have more playing experience than the devs, thought there was anything wrong with the Dom1 scales.

Other than the fact that it made order almost useless once you had some patrollers in your home province?

Order was still awesome up to that point. I remember the argument that turmoil/luck was the way to go because in the long term you got more income. The big problem is that a turmoil/luck race facing an order race in Dom1 often had no long term future. A large part of preparing for the long terms is getting the start right.

The clear advantage turmoil/luck races had in Dom1 is that order races cost more as misfortune was not a good option. Now days order costs the same as turmoil/luck as misfortune is no big deal when you have order.

Order was very strong in Dom1.

I do agree with Graham that we can't go back because too much else has changed.

Cheers

Keir

apoger · #5 November 24th, 2003, 02:38 AM

>Other than the fact that it made order almost useless once you had some patrollers in your home province?

In Dom1 I almost always used Order +3.
On the other hand many players used Order 0 or Turmoil +3.

In Dom2 nobody will purposely use anything but Order +3 when trying to be competitive.

Obviously you think that Dom1 order was not worthwhile. That's perfect! The scales should inspire different players to do different things.

Altering things now that Dom2 has been released is difficult. I honestly don't know what to suggest.

johan osterman · #6 November 24th, 2003, 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Zapmeister:
I'm referring to the scales, of course. The interesting choices in this area available in Dom1 have gone. This element of the game has been effectively removed, as all players make very similar choices.

What interesting choices are you refering to? In dom1 if you wanted to play in an MP game cranking up your growth and production scales to 3 was almost a foregone choice. There was an awful lot of complaints about the tax/patrol complex, including that order increased viable tax rate rather than taxes thus increasing MM. Also the positive scale effects where so beneficial that there were no reason to invest more than leftover design points into your pretender. While it certainly might be true that some scale settings are not viable options it is my heartfelt belief that more scale settings are viable in MP games than there was before. Also I think it is advisable to wait with tampering once again with the scale settings, at least until more MP games have been played and there is a little more dom2 MP game experience in the player base.

How do you now that all people use the same or very similar scale settings? While there might be a general feeling in this forum that some scales are under- or overpowered I think your claim is a bit premature. I guess that the similar scale design you attribute to all players is order 3 misfortune 3. I believe people tend to overestimate the effects of the bad events. A loss of 20% of the pop in your home province represents a loss perhaps of 30-50gp turn, which is not all that terrible. It would take appr. 13 turns to translate that into a loss of 500gp. Recieving 500gp as an event is not all that uncommon with turmoil 3 luck 3, and if you do recieve such a turn it would compensate for several turns not only of decreased income due to the turmoil but also for potentional loss due to negative events. There is also the fact that you will never recieve any national heroes with misfortune 3. I am not saying that turmoil 3 luck 3 is better than order 3 misfortune 3, just that it is a choice that does not deserve to be dismissed as unplaybale in MP's at this stage.

Finally I just wish to point out that some of the old cspigs crowd (I think George McGinn, at least, requested this although I do not remember if it was on cspigs or on the cgOnline forum) asked for a greater chance of bad events happening even with luck scale +3, because they never got to see any bad events since they were allways playing with maxed luck and felt they were missing out on features.

*Edit: what I do think is a problem, is that the obvious choices are +3 -3 or -3 +3.

[ November 24, 2003, 01:28: Message edited by: johan osterman ]

#7 November 24th, 2003, 03:28 AM

You also lose 20% of your production if the even happens in your capital province as well. Or 20% Production gained through Admin for any outside provinces.

Edit: Not that I'm disagreeing with you. I've played extensively with 3 Turmoil, 3 Luck in SP but MP only 3 times; but I haven't had the best of luck in either scenario. As well as trying to use the Jade Emperor and Lady of Fortune.

Maybe if a good event gave you 200 gold and 50 Production points for that turn, it would be equated.

[ November 24, 2003, 01:30: Message edited by: Zen ]

Raen · #8 November 24th, 2003, 03:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by apoger:
In Dom2 nobody will purposely use anything but Order +3 when trying to be competitive.

Exactly. Which is clearly wrong.

Gandalf Parker · #9 November 24th, 2003, 03:37 AM

Many of these discussions arent going anywhere anyway. Its not whether they are right or wrong, its just that they dont seem to know how to suggest changes to an artist. Any of them that seem to start from the basis of "this is whats wrong with your product" are going to fight a heavy battle to get on a "do list" IMHO

Gandalf Parker · #10 November 24th, 2003, 03:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Raen:

quote:
Originally posted by apoger:
In Dom2 nobody will purposely use anything but Order +3 when trying to be competitive.

Exactly. Which is clearly wrong.

I dont see it as quite that absolute. There are nations which have uses for chaos beyond the benefits that Order would give them. Ermor, Ctis, Pangaea? But if it seems like an automatic pick after we play all the nations abit then we should ask the devs to look at it again