A new idea for magic scales

[Chris Byler]

On that other scale thread Saber mentioned that high magic scales provide diminishing returns - going from 4 RP to 5 is bigger than from 5 to 6 or 6 to 7. (The cost of a research point can be approximated as (commander's maintenance cost)/(commander's research ability) - of course this neglects pretenders, who have no maintenance costs, but usually have many other things to do with their time.)

I thought of an interesting idea for high magic scales to provide an appropriate, useful and cool benefit: magical talent. In provinces with a magic scale, magical talent pervades the populace, causing some mages to be born with greater than usual magical ability.

Whenever any mage is recruited (not summoned) in any province with a magic scale there is a chance (I propose 5% per level of magic) that he (or she, as appropriate) will be talented. A talented mage gets +1 power to one randomly selected path of magic he already has (after taking random picks into account). One-path mages (like Anathemants) will get a predictable bonus, and many-path mages (like Masters of Five Elements) will get an unpredictable bonus.

I've never been happy with magic scales only helping research and not helping actual use of magic. Talent would change that - a talented Anathemant Dragon would have more powerful fire spells, for less fatigue cost, and have access to spells his untalented brethren wouldn't. But even with magic 3, on average you would have to buy 7 AD (a cost of over 2000) to get a talented one.

Players with a strong magic scale would probably get some talented mages over the course of a game, but not very many. But players with no magic scale wouldn't get any.

Talent is the equivalent of a "free" empowerment - except that you can't choose whom to empower (if most of the mages you hire are sages, most of your talented mages will be talented sages) or in what path. Furthermore there is only a small chance of getting it and only when you buy mages (which are expensive to begin with).

So I think this is interesting, not too powerful, and adds an attractive advantage to the otherwise insufficiently rewarding high magic scales.

Now that I thought of this idea, I like it better than Saber's and my other ideas about extra gem income or reduced gem costs for rituals, forging, empowerment etc. It gives the talented mages more individuality, and therefore makes magic scales more interesting (as well as more useful) to play.

(Note: this wouldn't benefit Ashen Empire, Soul Gates or Carrion Woods much, since those themes summon more of their mages. Those themes seem to be powerful enough anyway.)

[Saber Cherry]

Originally posted by Chris Byler:
Furthermore there is only a small chance of getting it and only when you buy mages (which are expensive to begin with).

Or maybe mages and priests, too... priests are more expensive in Doms II, and do kinda use magic. But getting a random astral on an otherwise healthy priest or mage would be annoying=)

Now that I thought of this idea, I like it better than Saber's and my other ideas about extra gem income or reduced gem costs for rituals, forging, empowerment etc. It gives the talented mages more individuality, and therefore makes magic scales more interesting (as well as more useful) to play.

Maybe so, but why put in one new cool scale effect when you can have lots of cool new scale effects?

Why don't you give a full -3 to +3 magic scale statistical rundown of what a player would expect? Right now I'm a little confused about drain, since obviously you couldn't have a less than zero chance of getting talented mages.

P.S. Aside from the astral thing, I think this would be more useful if it gave totally random magic, opening up new fields to a nation with talented, curious mages. Possibly weighted toward, but not exclusive to, existing paths.

[ November 23, 2003, 23:05: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

[Truper]

Whenever any mage is recruited (not summoned) in any province with a magic scale there is a chance (I propose 5% per level of magic) that he (or she, as appropriate) will be talented. A talented mage gets +1 power to one randomly selected path of magic he already has (after taking random picks into account). One-path mages (like Anathemants) will get a predictable bonus, and many-path mages (like Masters of Five Elements) will get an unpredictable bonus.

Cool idea! The way you've put it, it seems fun, not unbalancing, and does give magic scales a boost - and designs I've seen posted never do seem to emphasize magic scales. Myself, I often take magic +1 if I have inexpensive mages.

I've never been happy with magic scales only helping research and not helping actual use of magic.

While I know what you mean, this isn't strictly true, since using batlle magic in friendly magic dominion does reduce fatigue and enemy magic resistance.

[Argitoth]

Priest powers should absolutely not be included in this bonus. Holy/Unholy magic is done with prayers and is not in any way like a conventional path. There are no gems needed nor is there a fatigue cost. Priests can't even reaserch. That means the bonus from magic scales don't apply to priests except for the magic resistance. I'm not excluding priest/mage commanders, but holy/unholy magic should not be included in the bonus.

Futhermore, +1 magic from 3 to 4 makes the mage twice as strong. There are many very good spells at lvl 4 compared to lvl 3. Magic -1 -2 and -3 could give a 5, 10, 15% chance of a mage losing a level in a random path.

I'm not against it or for it, but I only demand that priest paths not be included.

[ November 23, 2003, 23:45: Message edited by: Argitoth ]

[Jasper]

I like this idea, although I agree with Chris the random paths should be restricted to what one already has. Drain doesn't need any extra penalty, as it already increasingly decrements.

[Jasper]

A bit off topic, but another thought is that magic/drain could also effect the arrival of heroes.

[Saber Cherry]

Originally posted by Argitoth:
Magic -1 -2 and -3 could give a 5, 10, 15% chance of a mage losing a level in a random path.

No way! What would be worse than buying a level-1 mage and randomly getting no magic? Not good.

[Keir Maxwell]

I like Chris's idea - quirky, useful but hard to exploit.

I agree that priests should be kept seperate. Holy/unholy powers are not part of my view of what a magic scale affects.

Cheers

Keir

[Argitoth]

Originally posted by Saber Cherry:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Argitoth:
Magic -1 -2 and -3 could give a 5, 10, 15% chance of a mage losing a level in a random path.

No way! What would be worse than buying a level-1 mage and randomly getting no magic? Not good.

---

Dood, ok... I'm just saying stuff. All I care about is that holy/unholy paths have no chance of getting a +1 bonus. And once again, I am not for or against the idea.

[Humer]

Originally posted by Chris Byler:
Whenever any mage is recruited (not summoned) in any province with a magic scale there is a chance (I propose 5% per level of magic) that he (or she, as appropriate) will be talented. A talented mage gets +1 power to one randomly selected path of magic he already has (after taking random picks into account). One-path mages (like Anathemants) will get a predictable bonus, and many-path mages (like Masters of Five Elements) will get an unpredictable bonus.

Nice idea! Magic scales are not on top of my list when designing a nation, this would certainly make it worth investing.

Suggestion: New ability "Talented: [path]", where [path] is one of the static paths of the nation. Probability should be somewhat high to make it appealing enough, somewhere in the region of 10%/scale (too much?). Effect would be the like the talented mage is using a appropriate gem for the casting. They could be scripted to cast higher-power spells and additional gems (if used) go toward fatigue reduction. They still couldn't cast [path]+2 spells. Small implementation (I hope), minor thing, major lure.

- Humer