AI is BETTER??

The Puke Empire · #1 December 22nd, 2000, 05:41 AM

Installed 1.19 and Mephisto's mod Lastnight and started a game with the B5 shipset. The AI behaved so much WORSE!! I only played one 1.11 game before 1.19 patch and in that game I was defeated by an AI around turn 50 who sent a feelt of 12 light crusiers (I had a 11 destoyers and frigates fleet).

The only wierd thing I Had with that game was that the AI actually had a light carrier accompanying that 12 lt. cruiser fleet but during the entire course of the war, it didn't have even one single fighter in it.

Now with 1.19, I expect some even stronger forces... I ended up encountering nothing but ships in pairs... that is, I have not even seen an ai fleet with more than 2 ships in it now that I own half the galaxy... am I doing something wrong??? how could this be fun? I just got the game Last week as a gift so I really hope there is something I didn't set up right! plase help!

ps I started both games at the hardest AI setting with no AI advantages.

Pss, Another evidence of a really BAD AI: the first race I had destroyed in my 2nd game, I destroyed em with merely 2 frigates armed with missiles.. I ended up destroying all of the enemy frigates, sats, destroyers and weapon platforms by a simple hit and run tactic. Because of the entire enemy empire, they don't even have one missile launcher.. (and the fact that their ships were slower than mine made the job so much easier, and boring).

Noble713 · #2 December 22nd, 2000, 06:36 AM

In my current game, my partners have repeatedly stopped by my territory with fleets of 7+ ships (mostly LCs, CAs, and CVLs). This is Hard AI/Low Bonus.

In my 1st game post-1.19 patch, I was losing on two fronts: the Krill Dominion (home system 1 jump from mine) and the Sergetti Empire (damn phased polaron beams). The Krill never had enough ships to form a big fleet, but the Sergetti smashed one of my planets with a 10-ship fleet. This is Hard AI/Medium Bonus.

I haven't played a game with no bonuses since at least the retail Version (1.01?), but I know for certain that, with the bonuses, the AI becomes a serious threat.

pathfinder · #3 December 22nd, 2000, 06:50 AM

I lost one game Last night to the Co-Cappa who sent a 13 ship fleet and creamed my home system (6 planets) in 6 turns...

Just got my tail smacked by 1 20+ fleet in an outlying system by the crystal AI...
so my guess you just got a bad "roll" for the AI during that game.

hehe, try another bud...they'll mass and smack ya ...eventually...

Talenn · #4 December 22nd, 2000, 07:29 AM

Well, the AI is definately more hostile (a GOOD thing) and it seems a bit more capable as well. I had never seen the AI mass ships like it did in my first two gaems with 1.19. I was used to 2s and 3s but a squadron of 6 Light Cruisers came in and glassed my forward colonies one after another unlike the patented 'wander and thrash' of the previous Version.

I'm fairly happy with it with High Difficulty, Low Bonus and 3000rps to my 2000. It gives a pretty good game now. Certainly I could smash it with mines etc, but when you play on equal footing, its not too bad.

Finally, yes, the 'missile dance' is definately the way to go on the early game. Only about 40% of the races actually use Missiles and the rest will die miserably to this tactic. I have trying to come up with a workaround of some kind, but the current movement system doesnt really allow for much. Its just too easy to run in, launch and run out until they are pounded to mush.

One thing I have done is to make a crude PD weapon available at the start of the game. This has at least helped blunt the early missile supremacy. Later in the game, Missiles are worthless against anyone who will build a good number of PD ships. To compensate, I've increased the cost of researching PD guns. At 5000 vs 15000 for better missiles, it was clear that it was impossible for the offense to keep up with the defense in that regard.

Anyways, FWIW, I've found the AI to be far better than under 1.11. It takes issue with your expansion early enough to offer resistance BEFORE its too late. It also seems to keep its ships together a little better and it seems to prioritize destruction of enemy colonies a little higher.

Keep plugging at it and try giving them the Low bonus. It really helps them, especially in the research dept.

Talenn

The Puke Empire · #5 December 22nd, 2000, 07:42 AM

Great!! can't wait til works over and even though it's friday night I guess I'll skip the bars and clubs to once again lead my puke empire.

if the AI still wont put up a fight though, I guess I'll just go make shipsets and wait for MM to get back from their vacation.

Mephisto · #6 December 22nd, 2000, 11:55 AM

What forces were so weak? Earth Alliance?

Anyway, sometimes the AI has just bad luck. If there is no good planet for them they will sometimes choke themselfs with their production, never getting to the point of building fighters. I have seen this in my privat playtesting.

You should make sure you
1.) play with research and not all tech available from start-up. The AI will use the tech but will also build lot of (wasted) research facilities.

2.) Play the battles in strategic mode. Imagine the AI as a player that runs his empire with a script. It's not a problem to beat him if you manually work around his script (missiles hit and run) but if you try to beat him with your own script, it becomes that much harder.

quote:
Originally posted by The Puke Empire:

Installed 1.19 and Mephisto's mod Lastnight and started a game with the B5 shipset. The AI behaved so much WORSE!! I only played one 1.11 game before 1.19 patch and in that game I was defeated by an AI around turn 50 who sent a feelt of 12 light crusiers (I had a 11 destoyers and frigates fleet).

The only wierd thing I Had with that game was that the AI actually had a light carrier accompanying that 12 lt. cruiser fleet but during the entire course of the war, it didn't have even one single fighter in it.

Now with 1.19, I expect some even stronger forces... I ended up encountering nothing but ships in pairs... that is, I have not even seen an ai fleet with more than 2 ships in it now that I own half the galaxy... am I doing something wrong??? how could this be fun? I just got the game Last week as a gift so I really hope there is something I didn't set up right! plase help!

ps I started both games at the hardest AI setting with no AI advantages.

Pss, Another evidence of a really BAD AI: the first race I had destroyed in my 2nd game, I destroyed em with merely 2 frigates armed with missiles.. I ended up destroying all of the enemy frigates, sats, destroyers and weapon platforms by a simple hit and run tactic. Because of the entire enemy empire, they don't even have one missile launcher.. (and the fact that their ships were slower than mine made the job so much easier, and boring).

Mephisto · #7 December 22nd, 2000, 12:26 PM

By the way, the AI *should* be better. It does seem to have a problem when many enemy empires are present. In a test game I surrendered all empires to one (the Phong). After this "my" AI went straight into offensive (with over 20 sips) and rushed through 2 systems, was not stopped by a minefield and destroyed every enemy colony within reach AFAP. I could not have pressed the attack more. If the AI puts up this fight to me, I'm in seriuos trouble.

Daynarr · #8 December 22nd, 2000, 01:01 PM

quote:
1.) play with research and not all tech available from start-up. The AI will use the tech but will also build lot of (wasted) research facilities.

I think that this issue should have been fixed with 1.19 patch. Haven't tried it yet though (I always play with the low starting research).

Btw. AI is not harder. It is a MANIAC. More aggressive, huge fleets that really strike, he explores your weak points in defense and uses them. I am currently in war with empire that is 1st on the score list (I am 4th). I have about 4-5 warp points that border his empire. So far he has tried to just storm in, then he tried to get through the black hole, establish a resupply base and then moved 4 carriers in orbit there filling them with fighters (thanks Mephisto

). When that didn't work he now tries to storm my weakest system (and maybe most important one, I have 1 huge colony and lots of research facilities there). So far I have reached about 100 turns and I am constantly on defense. This is a:
-250 system mid-life galaxy
-20 AI players on difficult setting, NO bonus
-Low research at start and high research cost

Also a note, I have very stable partnership and brotherly relation with Ukra-tal. That guy is in war with his 2 neighboring nations, so I have no treaties with them. So far I have noticed that Ai now is much more consistent in politics and making treaties, and won't rush into partnership in 5 turns like before.

Now this is the most interesting game so far for me.

DirectorTsaarx · #9 December 22nd, 2000, 04:30 PM

I started a new game after loading the patch (my 1.11 game had reached a point where I had partnerships with the 2nd place player, I'd completely destroyed the AI that started in my home system, and I was on my way to developing ringworld/sphereworld parts). Anyway, in the 1.19 game, I started in the same system as the Terrans, and another AI is on the other side of one of my warp points (as I discovered when they came through the warp point and blew up my colony ship). And the Terrans are definitely aggressive - they attacked one of my homeworlds once a turn for two or three turns straight (about time they kept up an attack...). I'm trying to defend myself with escorts, DUC 1's and CSM 1's when my enemies have destroyers and frigates with CSM 2 or 3 and various beam weapons. Fortunately, some CSM weapon platforms have been saving my planets.

I just wish I had more time to play...

DirectorTsaarx · #10 December 22nd, 2000, 04:39 PM

One more point - after reading this thread and a few others, I think we've fallen into the "be careful what you wish for" trap... MM has done a pretty good job of fixing the AI. It's not perfect, but neither am I...

Long live the Moebius Consortium (I hope)!