Caelum questions, both themes.

[Liadran]

First about research as Nagot Gick Fel said Harab Seraphs are faster researchers. If you (as is mostly done with Caelum) add Magic scale to that, then you're research is a bit faster than base Caelum can go with (base Caelum Seraph is also faster than High Seraph.

With Harab Seraphs you also get undead leadership. That's not to be forgotten with them. Also their paths are not useless if you think about the troops they are normally used with. Nagot already pointed out one good use for them. But if one says that only usefull spell is Orb Lightning then you haven't checked all the choices there is. That earth pick is very usefull for early expansion. If you go on item usage, then it's much more powerfull (they also can use Rain of Stones and also reserach it quite quickly). Ironskin as said is a very good spell (as are some others). It's not that uncommon to kill unarmoured mages.

Spring Hawks and etc rituals can be cast by Harab Elders as well as High Seraphs. For construction you can more easily get Dwarven Hammers. You only get 1 more air gem/turn, so not much more air rituals for base Caelum. Too much lighting use can backflash later in the game (can be defended against, and everyone will expect it). Storm is as effective for Raptors as for base Caelum. Quickness is missing and it takes some firepower away, but Raptors are not designed for combat lighting firepower as base Caelum is. They have more strengts elsewhere. Elders are Capital only which means that you have less of them, but Harab Seraphs used well are far from ineffective (they just are not lightning throwers). In longer games upkeep is quite important thing. Raptors have lower upkeep and it counts for quite much. Also the better aproach for no supply and no upkeep troops is an important matter. And the fact that Raptors are better at hurting enemy economy is very important.

When you start you can (with patrol) buy few Elders already. It also saves money if you consider other ways than Mammoths for early expansion.

Raptors synergy with their magic comes with their troops, not only with combat spells. Air, earth and death must all be used to their full effect. Earth can alone fix some of the flaws of Caelums' troops.

About that Dominion. Raptors can't push their dominion as effectively as base Caelum, meaning that where the figth is there most propably is not a Cold +3 province (and you don't have Wolven Winter for easy use).

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Good Point about Rain of Stones, RotR itself can use it to good effect, because of Ironskin.

Otherwise I agree with Graeme and others, RotR is much weaker than vanilla. Although I'd be happy enough with it if I could get rid of the holy-2 on the Elders for, say 20 gold, and get the Seraphines back in exchange.

[Zurai]

Originally posted by Zen:
It does have something to do with morale.

No it doesn't. A size one hobbit alone in a square gets attacked just as often as a size six pretender alone in a square. A size 4 giant with a size 1 or 2 companion isn't alone in a square.

I will say this: Jotun militia *might* rout where other militia would have *certainly* died. That's certainly true. I have never, ever heard that they have a "reputation for cowardice" though; as I said, all I have *ever* heard about Jotun militia is that they're by far the best.

No. They don't. They get attacked less since you can put 6 hobbits in a square. And only 1 giant per square. Unless you have an attack that affects an entire square (I.E. Harvest Blade) the giant will get more attacks because each attack on a square doesn't go to the 'first unit' in the square, but is determined randomly.

This is why Vaetti and Huskarls fill the weakness of getting swarmed in Base and Utgard themes.

[ March 05, 2004, 18:47: Message edited by: Zen ]

[Tuna-Fish]

Originally posted by Liadran:

Too much lighting use can backflash later in the game (can be defended against, and everyone will expect it)

Can NOT be defended against. Thunder ward gives only 50% resistance nowadays, and thunder strike will happily still kill people trough it. orb lighning becomes very useless though, but a level-3 air mage is good enough with thunder strike.

Originally posted by Liadran:
In longer games upkeep is quite important thing. Raptors have lower upkeep and it counts for quite much. Also the better aproach for no supply and no upkeep troops is an important matter. And the fact that Raptors are better at hurting enemy economy is very important.

Raptors arn't specifically better at hurting enemy economy. Also upkeep is a factor for late game, but I feel more important is mage production/use. If upkeep is slightly higher and research slightly faster with Harab Seraphs than High Seraphs, but each of those High Seraphs as the game progresses becomes more functionally useful than Harab Seraphs, I would say the better is the High Seraph. Especially considering the variety of spells (from Water to Air) as well as manuverability to underwater (which RotR lacks) and that Harab Seraphs are much less of a factor in both raiding and 'fighting'.

Raptors synergy with their magic comes with their troops, not only with combat spells. Air, earth and death must all be used to their full effect. Earth can alone fix some of the flaws of Caelums' troops.

A single Earth with no chance for random does not fix this flaw. It only produces a slightly more survivable mage in terms of melee, and slower fatiguing because they lack quickness.

About that Dominion. Raptors can't push their dominion as effectively as base Caelum, meaning that where the figth is there most propably is not a Cold +3 province (and you don't have Wolven Winter for easy use).

And this is a detriment, since half of your units fight better in a Cold Dominion; but the other half do not. So you are trapped between being able to take advantage and being at the whim of enemy dominion. If you take a weaker dominion to save points for a pretender; you will be more easily pushed (especially since you can't preach up dominion well at all) around and your dominion countered. If you do sink the points into a high punishing dominion, your theme specific troops are at a disadvantage over base Caelum. Not to mention the economic impact of still being Cold3 Preference.

[ March 05, 2004, 19:23: Message edited by: Zen ]

[Zurai]

Originally posted by Zen:
No. They don't. They get attacked less since you can put 6 hobbits in a square. And only 1 giant per square.

But what if there's only 1 hobbit in a square? Please for the love of God go back and read what I said. It is a VERY indirect factor on morale, one of quite a few. It is NOT a direct factor on morale in any sense of the word.

Originally posted by Zurai:
But what if there's only 1 hobbit in a square? Please for the love of God go back and read what I said. It is a VERY indirect factor on morale, one of quite a few. It is NOT a direct factor on morale in any sense of the word.

I consider it direct, since the game isn't played with 1 unit vs 1 unit, but in a squad mentality.

If everything you say is only based on 1 unit specifics, then Giants are the best in no uncertain terms. But since the game is composed of assigned resources and gold on a per unit basis as well as size, then you can't simply ignore the entirety of squad size, unit size, standards and any number of things when saying "This is the best".

If your point is that morale as a system is unaffected by size thus Giants and Humans are no different based on simple number values, I don't think anyone was saying counter to this. What I do think was said is that there are alot of factors for which Giants are more prone to make morale checks than other units. Most of your argument has been 'read' and 'heard'. The reality within the game is that you have to take special consideration of Giants below a certain Squad size because of the factors of morale.

If you were *only* talking about PD, which every player pays the same cost per point of militia, then you are correct. I don't think anyone has said that Jotun PD isn't on top or near the top of the PD heap.

[Zurai]

Originally posted by Zen:
Most of your argument has been 'read' and 'heard'.

Incorrect. NONE of my argument was "read" or "heard". ALL of my argument was in-game experience. Where the "read" and "heard" comes in is refuting Norfleet's incorrect statement "Then why is it that Jotun militia, especially, is widely reputed for its cowardice?"

If you were *only* talking about PD, which every player pays the same cost per point of militia, then you are correct. I don't think anyone has said that Jotun PD isn't on top or near the top of the PD heap.

Again, all my statements about Jotun PD were made to refute the extremely off-center statement from Norfleet.

Norfleet didn't mention PD at all. Just Militia as an example based on Arryn's statement that the even the Militia have 11 Morale (Which is not entirely true, their base Morale is 10, while human militia is 8. Only the factor of home province and Domain change this).

I don't know about 'widely noted for their cowardice' but the issue that they have a tendancy to rout because of the other factors that were stated is by and large true.

[ March 05, 2004, 20:55: Message edited by: Zen ]