Anybody else dislike the endgame?

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Miles:
These things would devastate multiplayer. However, they would be extremely rewarding in singleplayer. Ideally, they would be an option on the game setup screen. They should only be revealed at endgame. Their purpose is to entertain the player and bring a swift end to the game. They might include:

The sort of these things that we already have include:
Master enslave: Convert 1/4 to 1/2 or more of your opponent's army to your own side.
Utterdark: Anything not undead has attack and precision reduced to near-blindness levels.
Wish: Go for doom horrors and watch the fireworks.
Arcane Nexus: Gives you an income of hundreds of gems per turn.

[tinkthank]

Originally posted by Miles:
Most of my problems with Dom2's endgame is the busywork. I think the endgame would be much improved if we could get rid of some of the busywork. This might include:

• A Continue Forging this item command.
• A Continue recruiting this commander/units command. New units in this mode should automatically be assigned to the new commander.
• A MoveTo a province command.
• Being able to set a 'rally point' for any units produced within a province.
• Being able to easily demote commanders (to unit).
• Being able to stack commanders (with their armys) under other commanders on the Army Setup screen. This way, multiple armies could be represented and managed by a single commander.
• If you can set a 'refill' flag when you transfer gems to a commander. From then on, he will automatically refill with gems if there is a lab or available jems on another commander.

Miles

I like this first list -- great. Things that would be good for everyone. Rallypoints -- oh god yes. Keep forging -- please. All good stuff. Not so keen on the huge killers at the end, but that#s just me.

[mcv]

Originally posted by Miles:
Most of my problems with Dom2's endgame is the busywork. I think the endgame would be much improved if we could get rid of some of the busywork. This might include:

• A Continue Forging this item command.

I've read somewhere that you can do that with rituals, but it's not obvious from the UI, and I don't understand why they didn't add the same feature for forging. Or allow me to set a forge queue or something. It's not like I'm suddenly going to move them around or something.

[quote][*]A Continue recruiting this commander/units command. New units in this mode should automatically be assigned to the new commander.[/list]

Exactly! You can make a huge build queue for normal units, but you have to add the commander by hand each turn. I'd like to queue my commanders.
It would also be nice if queued units that won't be built this turn, didn't cost me money right away.

• A MoveTo a province command.

Or being able to set waypoints, so you can specify the exact route to take. In any case, movement should be easier, because moving large distances is really redious as it is right now.

• Being able to easily demote commanders (to unit).
• Being able to stack commanders (with their armys) under other commanders on the Army Setup screen. This way, multiple armies could be represented and managed by a single commander.

Both also big on my wish list. Armies, Groups, or whatever often consist of several commanders and mages, but they belong together and need to move and do stuff as a group. Allow commanders to be subcommanders under another commander. Let me group my 2 dozen sages, so I can move them if they're threatened, and I can find the occasional priest, mage or enchanter or huge army a bit easier.


The single player game also needs some massively overpowered toys to reward the endgame. Something like MOO1's mauler beam. Or MOM's 'Mastery of Magic' spell. Or XCom1's supervehicle.

These things would devastate multiplayer. However, they would be extremely rewarding in singleplayer.

Not necessarily. If everybody has access to the same super items, it can still be balanced. Just don't lag behind.
In Stars!, the end game hull, the Nubian, is way better than anything else. Being the first to reach it is a huge advantage. Fighting Nubians with Battleships is a lost cause. So everybody makes sure they don't lag behind, and suddenly everything is okay again. The same goes for weapons tech, actually.

It depends on what the tech/spell/whatever does, ofcourse. It doesn't have to be a "you win" spell, just something that lets me move my huge armies around a little faster. The Vanheim commanders are great for this, if you're on a watery map. Magic items, enchantments and whatever that would allow me to teleport/fly a huge army to any friendly province within a certain range, would be great.
Ofcourse all players should be able to do something similar, so it can't be just a single high level astral spell, the effect should be
reachable by different routes. Perhaps earth+construction allows you to build some sort of railroad, air magic allows you to forge something that can fly an army from A to B, perhaps a nature spell leads you across a hidden, magical path to a forest province of your choice. That sort of stuff.

There are a couple of things that do something like that already, but The Flying Ship is unique, making it inherently unbalanced if it actually increased your speed on the map (which I think it doesn't, does it?), Cloud Trapeze and Teleport work only on the caster, and not on an entire army (I think they arrive too early in the game for that), and Stygian Paths kills your army. (I'm sure there are more, but I had to search to find even these.)

So the idea is there, but they didn't dare to do anything with it, for fear of making it too powerful. However, at least travel through your own territory can get really slow and tedious on a big map, and making that a bit faster would only help the game. Civ has railroads that do this, MoO had stargates, Stars! has stargates quite early in the game, even, and it doesn't hurt the game a bit. I think something with a similar effect would keep the endgame of Dom2 a lot more playable.


mcv.

[Arryn]

Originally posted by mcv:
I've read somewhere that you can do that with rituals, but it's not obvious from the UI, and I don't understand why they didn't add the same feature for forging.

Mouse over the caster and press SHIFT-M to cast a monthly ritual.

The short answer to why the folks at IW haven't done various UI-related things is they (by their own admission) dislike UI coding, and prefer to code AI or do other gameplay-related stuff. The aVersion to UI coding may be a perversely Swedish thing, because Paradox (another Swedish outfit, which also began with 2 programmers) has had ongoing UI issues (for years) with EU, EU2, HOI, and Victoria. But unlike Paradox, IW actually has produced a good AI. If the HOI AI was half as good as Dom's, I'd still be playing HOI.

Cloud Trapeze and Teleport work only on the caster, and not on an entire army (I think they arrive too early in the game for that), and Stygian Paths kills your army. (I'm sure there are more, but I had to search to find even these.)

Gateway (page 117) works on the caster and all troops assigned to him. The L8 Construction magic item Gate Stone (page 61) works just like the Gateway spell.

[Taqwus]

If memory serves, the Gateway Stone now casts Astral Travel, which is basically the Dom I-style Gateway -- unlike Dom II Gateway, the destination does not have to be a friendly province with a lab.

[Endoperez]

Also, there is Death spell Stygian Abyss, a portal with some risks, and Nature spell Faery Trod that takes an army and lets the mage and all troops in his command to move through hidden, magical paths to a forest province of his choice. Also, there is Earth-Astral + Construction route for the Gate Stone, which also all-troops-on-my-command effect. What else did you want? Oh, there is a (nature-air?) flying ship too.

[Saxon]

The comment that the end game is busy work is pretty accurate. The solution, from my point of view, is to ignore a lot of it. I stop worrying about every little thing, push the big things, and rush through turns. Sure, I win on turn 100 instead of 95, but I finish about three hours earlier. Once you reach the end game and you know you will win, either call it a night or rush through. If you are really strong enough, cutting corners will not matter. Your grand plan is in place and usually just needs a few more turns to work, rather than more fine tuning.

I resisted this for some time, but gave in Saturday night and raced through five turns in the time of one. Lo and behold my dominion based strategy crushed Vanheim, even though I had ignored the strategy, only moving the big armies against Ulm. I took a few minutes longer on the next turn to snap up the now empty provinces, then fast forward again. I pumped in all the cash I was not spending into overly high provincial defenses, it was quick and protected me.

I guess what I am suggesting is that if you really want to play the game to the end, change your approach. It is fun and fast.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by tinkthank:
I can only imagine what UI coding is like, but who knows -- if I gather correctly, Dominions II is not something the people at Illwinter are doing in their spare time, but is a commercial enterprise complete with post-sale support, client binding and customer relations management

Then you would gather incorrectly, since I don't think anyone has ever said anything other than that the two programmers do it all in their spare time.

[tinkthank]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:

quote:

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Originally posted by tinkthank:
I can only imagine what UI coding is like, but who knows -- if I gather correctly, Dominions II is not something the people at Illwinter are doing in their spare time, but is a commercial enterprise complete with post-sale support, client binding and customer relations management

Then you would gather incorrectly, since I don't think anyone has ever said anything other than that the two programmers do it all in their spare time.

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Are you serious?

[Arralen]

He is !