Satellites and the Need for Fighters at Games Start

[God Emperor]

Have been refining my early game strategies and tactics and have developed a concern over the use of satellites to wipe out enemy planets.
I typically build an "Explorer" class transport that is equipped with two satellite bays, 3 supply units and 11 satellites. The ship is basically indestructable early on and the satellites provide enough firepower early on to destroy even home worlds (about four salvos required).
The only defence is to have a defensive Explorer (to enable deployment of satellites at distance from the planet)or several frigates or escorts (remember I'm talking early on here). My concern here isnt just the AI (which cant react effectively to this tactic at all), but, in games between human opponents (where the first person to discover an opponents players is at a major advantage because it is difficult to initiate a conclusive battle (Explorer can hide amongst its satellites).

The rationale for having satellites early on is appropriate I think, but, there is a need for a weapon that can target satellites from long range.
My initial thought was to allow Fighters and Point Defence at game start (no carriers though until cruiser tech achieved)to allow players to defend their systems. Point Defence is provided to allow offensive players to counter Fighters if they so decide to specially equip their ships.

Does anyone else have any different thoughts?

[Eisenhans]

Nice strategy! But why not only PD as a counter measure? Build some PD frigates and bLast the sats. Or a WP on the planet. The fighters won't be much use because they could be countered easily with two PD sats or with PD on the transport. (Maybe)

[God Emperor]

WP's do not work as they cannot target the satellites that are deployed within firing range of the planet - eg at 9 or 10 range.
PD's might work - hmm, might have to try the simulator.
As for FTR's being picked off by PD, a decent planet can hold a lot of FTR's - far more than a few frigates or escorts equipped with PD could handle. A mixed force of PD satellites and missile satellites might be a different proposition, but, the transport would still probably be denied deploying satellites within firing range of the planet (my Explorer is limited to carrying only 11-13 satellites). Anyway, I take your point though, I'll check out the use of early ships equipped with PD as a defence against missile satellites.

Also, under my suggestion, I think that the Ftr Bay 1 would have to have its space allowance increased (ie make it take up 60kT space) to make it less attractive for use on transports (I think it should be allowed but just made less attractive). Missile satellite carrying trasnports may be bad, but when the transports can carry fighters as well, they are downright rude (my Skirmisher design transport has two satellite bays, two fighters bays and the rest as cargo bays - can carry 8 satellites and 22 fighters from memory!)

[Tenryu]

God Emperor, You could Mod some planet launch only fighters for early game. And I agree on the fighter bay size issue, however my bay mods launch about the same number of fighters as the equivalent number of 30kt bays. You might want to reduce that and their storage capacity as well.

I have considered 'getting rid of' crew quarters and using that requirement for other things I might want to FORCE on hulls. Just a thought.

Another solution to the bays on transports issue may be to just up the minimum percent that must be cargo, and remove the cargo field from mine layers and sat bays so they don't hold cargo or count there, they just launch junk. Actually been thinking of doing that myself.

I just posted some recent ship work in the MOD section for SE4,( not the lame topic area I started by mistake), my most recent Fighter Bays are in the ComponentsMisc file there.

[This message has been edited by Tenryu (edited 16 January 2001).]

[Barnacle Bill]

I think the root problem here is easy to fix via a mod, since the changes in V1.19. I would say that satellites were probably intended to be a defensive weapon, set out at a sector you wish to defend in advance of combat. Frankly, I find the practice of laying them offensively during combat to be abusive. The fix is to set the parameter in the satellite bay component for the number of satellites you can launch per tactical turn (i.e. during combat) to 0. Leave the other value, for the number you can launch per strategic turn (i.e. outside combat) alone. Then you can use satellites as I'm pretty sure they were intended, rather than as an invincible early-game offensive weapon.

[Tenryu]

[quote]Originally posted by Barnacle Bill:
Frankly, I find the practice of laying them offensively during combat to be abusive. The fix is to set the parameter in the satellite bay component for the number of satellites you can launch per tactical turn (i.e. during combat) to 0. Leave the other value, for the number you can launch per strategic turn (i.e. outside combat) alone. [/QUOTE

Yes! Excellent suggestion, Bill.

[Ungor]

From what I see here, it seems that the offensive satellite-layer strategy is really only effective when using missiles. Based on my experience and what I've read in other threads, missiles seem to be a bit of an uber-weapon in the very early game regardless of platform. If CSMs were removed as a starting tech there would at least be a deterrent to going that route, so I'm leaning toward doing that in my game already. Do you think that would be enough to balance out the tactic, or would more be required?


Attack what they love first.
-Sun Tzu


Ungor

[God Emperor]

With respect to those people who do not like satellites launched offensively, I would suggest that a logical fix (eg a counter weapon such as PD) be used rather than just eliminating their use (which simply reduces strategy options).
Consider real life, if something exists and can be used for combat purposes, it will. Dont outlaw it, lets include a logical counter.
In a future space combat encounter, I could imagine someone seeding satellites around an enemy planet if they thought it would work.

Part of the problem stems, I think, from the relative size of the early warships vs transports and colony ships.
I'm considering eliminating colony ships and transports and just allowing Lt Cruisers to be available at game start (which would then be used as colony ships and transports).
There is no logical reason (particulalry in game terms)why a 300kT colony ship/transport exists, but, the equivalent size warship doesnt. If there is a logical reason, it should be expressed in the game, rather than just outlawed - ie colony ships and transports must have a certain % of specific components, why? (Apart from game balance reasons).
With a 300KT warship in existance at game start, use of offensive satellites by transport configured ships becomes a much less viable proposition - particularly if some form of PD is also allowed.
Anyway, those are my most recent thoughts for debate.....

[Barnacle Bill]

quote:

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Originally posted by God Emperor:
Dont outlaw it, lets include a logical counter.
In a future space combat encounter, I could imagine someone seeding satellites around an enemy planet if they thought it would work.

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In Science Fiction you are dealing with something that hasn't happened yet. How it will work is conjecture, based on your assumptions as to the course of future technological developments. Sometimes authors make assumptions and then decide how combat would work based on them. More often, they adopt a paradigm based on some historical model and tailor the assumptions to make it work. For example, in Weber's Honor Harrinton stories he wanted it to work like naval combat in the age of sail, so he invented tech that makes it do so. Throwing in an aircraft carrier analog mucks it all up, if what you want is Trafalgar in space. If what you want is Midway in space, that's another story.

Offensive use of satellites does not fit the paradigm that it appears MM was seeking, which looks like what mainstream naval theorists expected in the late 1930's (battlewagons still rule the waves but carriers or at least aircraft have a significant supporting role). So, I support killing the concept altogether.

[Nyx]

I'd prefer leaving combat deployment in, and taking CSMs out of the starting tech suite. But that's because I don't like the massive power advantage they have over all other weapons at the start. I don't think sats with depleted uranium gun 3s would be nearly so abusive. But a player could still use a sat-deployer to place a defensive ring of sats around a planet (since the program tends to stick them on the wrong side or in other inconvenient places) as a way to have them actually protect his worlds.