Rangefinders

[Kiwikkiwik]

Hi I have some information to share on Range finders.
You have two German vehicles that mounts a rangefinder, unit 840 Jagdpanther (+) and unit 199 PzKw Panther F. There are several other units that are also equiped with the same rangefinder as the Jagdpanther but do not have the RF value of 10 that these two units have.
They are

For Great Britian units missing there Rangefinders are

Unit 017 challenger and unit 138 Avenger
A30 Challenger tank A technical History by Knight contains an illustration of the challenger turret interior, fastened to the inside is a tubular case labeled "CASE, No. 12 RANGEFINDER" The text also mentions that the Avenger carries a Rangefinder, probably the No. 12 again.

The Germany units missing there Rangefinders are

Unit 507 JPz IV/70V or 510 JPz IV/70VA, starting in Nov 44
Panzer Tracts No. 9-2 JagdPanzer says this "From a list of sighting equipment dated 15 November 1944, one third of the Panzer IV lang (V) were to be outfitted with a SF 14 Z (scissors periscope) and a Entfernungs-Messer 0.9 m (range finder)"

Unit 033 or 722 or 871 or 872, all Sturmpanzer IV, starting in Nov 44
Panzer Tracts No. 8-1 SturmPanzer says this "In a STT listing on optical equipment dated 15 Nov 1944 based on German documents, we found that one out of every five Sturmpanzer shall have a range finder 'Entfernungmesser 0.9 m Raumbild'"

Panzer Tracts No. 9-3 JagdPanther says this "Each JagdPanther was authourised to have an EM 0.9 m R 'scissors' rangefinder that was to be used by the loader to accurately determine the range when engaging targets at long ranges. Starting in March 1944 ... three spikes were welded onto the superstructure roof in front of the Loaders hatch to be used for securing the tripod mount for this EM 0.9 m R."
So maybe the introduction date for unit 840 Jagdpanther (+) should be March 44 instead of January 45.

Your Help says this "(e.g. 8 for the Nashorn, which used a stereo optical range finder of artillery observer type)" this is the same Rangefinder as unit 840 Jagdpanther (+) so rangefinder value for Nashorn should also be 10.

Panzer Tracts The deadly 88 says this about an engagement between 8.8cm Flak L56 and Russian tanks, "Two tanks were spotted to our right. The rangefinder had measured the exact range to the curve, and as the monsters reached this position, both went up in bright flames after three shots."

Panzer Tracts No. 22-5 Gepanzerter 8t contains a picture of a "BunkerBusting" 88 using a rangefinder while busting a bunker. For 88s there are many pictures of the weapon being used in the ground role with a Rangefinder in attendance taking ranges. This panzer tracts also has an interesting photo of unit 483 SdKfz 7/2 FlaK in March 44 preparing to fire a stielgranate. There is a rangefinder in attendance and It gives the Max range of the Steilgranate as 700m, they are probably aiming at a bunker or house. Units 90, 134, 411 and 707 effected. Probably safe to say unit 509 10.5cm Gun Empl and 508 12.8cm Gun Empl also operated with a rangefinder and so should also get a value of 10 for rangefinder.

Units 483 SdKfz 7/2 FlaK and 62/482 SdKfz 7/1 FlaK towed a trailer which contained accessories including the Rangefinder.
Panzer Tracts No. 22-1 Leichter Zugkraftwagen 1t details how your unit 060 SdKfz 10/4 FlaK carries it Em 1m R (rangefinder) on the trailer.
Panzer Tracts No. 22-2 Leichter Zugkraftwagen 3t details how your unit 168 SdKfz 11 Flak38 carries its rangefinder below the platform deck in a special box.
sdkfz 6/2 carries R36 range finder below the platform. But this vehicle is not in game.
Panzer Tracts No. 12 Flak Selbstfahrlafetten and Flakpanzer has a nice picture of the Mobelwagon equipped with the Rangefinder. Panzer Tracts No. 12-1 Flak has a whole series of them. So unit 175 Moebelwagen can also have a Rangefinder value of 10

http://www.lonesentry.com/manuals/ge...t_aa_guns.html says this.

"1-meter-base range-finder[6] (fig. 7).—The 1-meter (39.37-inch)-base range-finder is employed by light AA detachments manning the 2-cm Flak 30 and 38 and the 3.7-cm Flak 36" confirmed in, German medium flak in combat and German 20mm flak in world war II by Muller.

So units 87 2cm FlaK 30, unit 89 3.7cm FlaK 36, unit 880 3.7cm FlaK 43 and unit 88 2cm Vierling should also get aa Rangefinder value of 10

So all the units mentioned above should get Rangefinder value of 10 same as the Jagdpanther (+)

Tiger tanks at war by Green says this "some tiger tanks turrets come with a small scissors like coincidence type rangefinder stored within their turrets. When in use it attached to the bottom interior of the tank commanders cupola on a moveable bracket." But I've been unable to verify this information so may be wrong especially as in his other book Panzers at war Green names this Rangefinder as the TZR 1 with a length of 140cm, which is actually a periscope.
However in Jentzs book Germany's Tiger Tanks there is a nice photo of a Tiger I cupola showing a peg. The caption reads, "The peg on the cupola ring behind his back was intended as a mount for a rangefinder" The rangefinder would be the EM 9.0.

Being Naval ordinance coastal artillery is treated the same as ship turrets ie used in combination with a rangefinder. For germany seacoast artillery are used in conjunction with either 6, 10 or 12m rangefinders other countries would have the same naval rangefinder installations for coastal artillery. All Coastal artillery should probably get rangefinder values of 10 or maybe better as they are intended to duel with ships.

It is common knowledge that German optics were often better than their opponents, here is one of the reasons why, lots of rangefinders. However German light AA in particular is seriously weak because of the ommission or its correct rangefinder values. They are currently around 2, should be 10. The germans who spent a lot of time and money on optics are getting mightily shortchanged in your game at the moment.

[DRG]

All of those tanks / guns have RF rating but apparently not what you think they should be and I have already posted on the TO&E thread that we are not making any further changes to the OOB's so these repeated mega posts listing things you think need to be changed may not be falling on deaf ears but they are on increasingly annoyed ones.

This is the LAST time I will tell you this.....If you don't like what we have done, and it's clear you *think* you have the knowledge of how the game actually works to do better, then I suggest you get busy on your own 36 OOB set. The game treats targeting and hitting results differently for AA and for ground units and the values we are using for AA we consider fair and anyone who disagrees can edit their own OOB's, however they like, as we have included the tools to do so from the very beginning 21 years ago.

Don

[Kiwikkiwik]

Ok sorry you are annoyed, but there does seem to be some confusion here, here's what your Help says about Rangefinder.

"Range Finder - This makes hitting targets easier, especially for firers who did not move. 14 is the level for laser range finders, use 6 for the ranging coaxial rifle calibre MG as used in UK tanks, or 8 for a ranging .50 MG as used in Chieftains. USE AROUND 6-10 FOR OPTICAL RANGE FINDERS as in the M48/M60/Leo 1. values under 5 tend to be used for WW2 type tank sights. For reference - 4 was generally the max value in SP 1 (e.g. panthers) barring some specials (e.g. 8 for the Nashorn, which used a stereo optical range finder of artillery observer type)."

So have I read this right? if a unit has a RF then it should get a RF value between 6-10? well that isnt what's happening for the units I've listed, their RF values are well below 6, except for the 88's.

Jagdpanther (+) has a rangefinder and so gets a value of 10, The stock Jagdpanther gets a rangefinder value of 3. What's the difference? one thing only, Jagdpanther (+) has a rangefinder. All the units listed use the same RF as the Jagdpanther (+) so shouldn't they also get the same RF value of 10?

So one of the JPz IV/70V's (currently R/F value of 4) and Sturmpanzer IV's (currently R/F value of 0 or 2) could become a (+) version with RF value of 10 for the very same reason that jagdpanther (+) version gets R/F value of 10, they have a rangefinder. EXACTLY the same range finder as the Jagdpanther (+) in fact. Made sense to me anyway.

Also as the 88 and Nashorn also use EXACTLY the same rangefinder, shouldn't they get a value of 10 as well?

For 20mm and 37mm FLAK look at the other countries AA. German 20mm Flak can have RF values of 1, 2 or 3, British 20mm AA can have RF values of 1 or 2. German 3.7mm flak gets RF 1 or 2, 40mm Bofors gets RF of 1 or 2. So German and British AA has the SAME values, which means the Germans adding RF to their FLAK was a complete waste of time because it made exactly no difference to shooting down planes, according to your game anyway.

Not to mention your help says the German FLAK should get a value of at least 6!

US eight air force produced an article during the war called "Light Intense and accurate" It mentions that pilots are never to straff an airfield twice in quick succession as once the light flak is manned and alert that amounted to suicide, some airfields had enough FLAK to be no-go zones for strafing. Also advice was to NEVER attack a train from the rear, as you become a sitting duck for the FLAK. They lost a lot of pilots that way. In game FLAK is easily defeated by a plane. I thought increasing light flaks R/F value (again as German FLAK uses exactly the same R/F as Jagdpanther (+) value should be 10) might make the flak plane relationship a bit more historical. Another interesting example is the straits of Messina where there was enough FLAK to let the Germans ship their entire force from Sicily to Italy without the US even trying to intercede. To me it looks as though FLAK in underrated quite a bit in the game, planes usually avoided it, In game they can pretty easily destroy it.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Kiwikkiwik

Ok sorry you are annoyed, but there does seem to be some confusion here, here's what your Help says about Rangefinder.

Yes, and it's you that is causing the confusion

Originally Posted by Kiwikkiwik

"Range Finder - This makes hitting targets easier, especially for firers who did not move. 14 is the level for laser range finders, use 6 for the ranging coaxial rifle calibre MG as used in UK tanks, or 8 for a ranging .50 MG as used in Chieftains. USE AROUND 6-10 FOR OPTICAL RANGE FINDERS as in the M48/M60/Leo 1. values under 5 tend to be used for WW2 type tank sights.

So have I read this right? if a unit has a RF then it should get a RF value between 6-10?

We said 6-10 post ww2 tanks as a general rule of thumb to give the early OOB designers a benchmark to work from...values under 5 tend to be used for WW2 type tank sights as we said

......and ONCE AGAIN I say we are NOT making further changes to the OOB's and that really is the last time I am going to tell you that