48. Seela's Pioneers

[Gerry1]

Hi: Hoping you can give me some tips on winning this. Basically visibility is 5 as it is a night attack. You have some SPW 251/1 with Pioneers but no tanks or artillery. You have one SPW 251/16 Flammpanzer. The town has a bunch of T-34s and ATGs in there so I was not able to overcome them.

1) How far forward do you drive the SPWs? I want to play historically and my understanding is they were mostly to deliver infantry to an area but not get too close due to their weak armor. I read somewhere they should stay say 400m back from the action?

2) How do you use them to scout, if at all, as you don't have armored cars.

3) I dismounted infantry near the town. They have flamethrowers so I went into buildings one hex from the T-34s. But the from the T-34s is very powerful and sometimes routed/pinned etc. the pioneers.

Thanks.

[Gerry1]

Here is an excerpt from Nipe's decision in the Ukraine:

"In the evening, a Totenkopf battle group under command of Knight’s Cross winner SS-Sturmbannführer Max Seela engaged the troops of 49th Tank Brigade and 17th Tank Regiment that held Levandolovka. The SS combat engineers of 1./ Pionier-Abteilung 3 assaulted the village, broke into the perimeter and destroyed a number of the Soviet tanks with antitank weapons in close combat. Only a few survivors of the Russian force were able to escape to a wooded area northwest of the village. The sixty to seventy men of Kampfgruppe Seela continued north from the village, reached the railroad line near a rail station at Vodjanaja and worked slowly down the length of the railroad toward the west. 5 The battle group of 112th Tank Brigade that had occupied Vysokopol’ye continued to fight off In the evening, a Totenkopf battle group under command of Knight’s Cross winner SS-Sturmbannführer Max Seela engaged the troops of 49th Tank Brigade and 17th Tank Regiment that held Levandolovka. The SS combat engineers of 1./ Pionier-Abteilung 3 assaulted the village, broke into the perimeter and destroyed a number of the Soviet tanks with antitank weapons in close combat. Only a few survivors of the Russian force were able to escape to a wooded area northwest of the village. The sixty to seventy men of Kampfgruppe Seela continued north from the village, reached the railroad line near a rail station at Vodjanaja and worked slowly down the length of the railroad toward the west. 5 The battle group of 112th Tank Brigade that had occupied Vysokopol’ye continued to fight off attacks by other elements of the SS engineer battalion that attempted to drive them from the town."

[jivemi]

--Spoiler Alert--

1) Don't lead with the Flammpanzer; drop off your infantry about 300 meters from the objective (and better stay off the road coming in). Wait until infantry engage the T-34s, either to close assault, hit them with AT weapons, or simply soak off their shots. Then you may attack the weakest one(s) with the flamer, provided that you're reasonably assured no enemy can take potshots at it. (The designer, CB Blackard, is a master at hidden surprises).
2) Don't scout with it either--without designated scout units your infantry are the default. After capturing the first town you will be obliged to take chances with infantry in HTs (SPW 251/1s) to go for the northern objectives, but keep the Flammpanzer behind them. IIRC it's best to take several routes (some along the road, some off) north with your HT's to avoid running into enemy speeding to counterattack, and don't go too fast--maybe half speed--along the road. Dismount at least one infantry after moving for a "lookaround" and to spot enemy on the Russian interturn--or at least a chance to spot them, since they've moved as fast as their transports.
3) The first town is key to further success. After dismounting the infantry advance no more than one or two hexes per turn, preferably in buildings, trees or craters. Swivel them around on each move to check for enemy on the flanks. If you're not sure lay down smoke to block LOS (line of sight). After taking the town consider leaving one infantry behind to make sure no "lurkers" can take the objective with impunity.

Hope that helps. It's a challenging scenario based on historical events. Good luck!

[Gerry1]

Thanks very much for the tips. I tried some of those ideas but I am sure my execution was probably not great. T-34s at 50m did a lot of damage to my infantry in the buildings.

A few more questions:
1) What do you do with the SPWs after unloading as they are so thin skinned and the Soviets have T-34s and ATG? Do you move them around to get eyes on part of the battle? In this scenario if they try to support infantry with MG fire they will expose themselves.

2) Some of you have read way more WW II history than me. I am wondering how the Germans historically decided when to dismount from the APCs and also get off the road when they didn't have armored cars for scouting. (As you say in the scenario you need a good first turn so if you are too cautious it will not work.)

Thanks again.

Originally Posted by jivemi

--Spoiler Alert--

1) Don't lead with the Flammpanzer; drop off your infantry about 300 meters from the objective (and better stay off the road coming in). Wait until infantry engage the T-34s, either to close assault, hit them with AT weapons, or simply soak off their shots. Then you may attack the weakest one(s) with the flamer, provided that you're reasonably assured no enemy can take potshots at it. (The designer, CB Blackard, is a master at hidden surprises).
2) Don't scout with it either--without designated scout units your infantry are the default. After capturing the first town you will be obliged to take chances with infantry in HTs (SPW 251/1s) to go for the northern objectives, but keep the Flammpanzer behind them. IIRC it's best to take several routes (some along the road, some off) north with your HT's to avoid running into enemy speeding to counterattack, and don't go too fast--maybe half speed--along the road. Dismount at least one infantry after moving for a "lookaround" and to spot enemy on the Russian interturn--or at least a chance to spot them, since they've moved as fast as their transports.
3) The first town is key to further success. After dismounting the infantry advance no more than one or two hexes per turn, preferably in buildings, trees or craters. Swivel them around on each move to check for enemy on the flanks. If you're not sure lay down smoke to block LOS (line of sight). After taking the town consider leaving one infantry behind to make sure no "lurkers" can take the objective with impunity.

Hope that helps. It's a challenging scenario based on historical events. Good luck!

[Mobhack]

Moved thread to campaigns and scenarios forum, as its a scenario question.

[jivemi]

[quote=Gerry1;840180]Thanks very much for the tips. I tried some of those ideas but I am sure my execution was probably not great. T-34s at 50m did a lot of damage to my infantry in the buildings.

A few more questions:
1) What do you do with the SPWs after unloading as they are so thin skinned and the Soviets have T-34s and ATG? Do you move them around to get eyes on part of the battle? In this scenario if they try to support infantry with MG fire they will expose themselves.

2) Some of you have read way more WW II history than me. I am wondering how the Germans historically decided when to dismount from the APCs and also get off the road when they didn't have armored cars for scouting. (As you say in the scenario you need a good first turn so if you are too cautious it will not work.)

Thanks again.

[quote=jivemi;840176]

1) Against tanks or ATGs always leave APCs behind the infantry, waiting for them to deal with the steel monsters, AT guns, etc. Once they've crushed resistance then remount the Pioneers to head for other objectives. Personally don't use APCs (or armored cars--too expensive) for scouting, except when pressed for time or considering whether to advance tanks along a particular route. In the latter case a blown-up HT is cheaper than a tank!

2) Seems much of tactical combat "history" is either anecdotal, classified, or obscure. Really don't know about German mechanized infantry doctrine. Perhaps someone with more information could enlighten us?

[scorpio_rocks]

I believe that German panzer-grenadiers were the ONLY "armoured" infantry trained to fight from their APCs.

Interesting contemporary video showing tactics for a panzergrenadier company, with flamm platoon (and admittedly a tankdestroyer section) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMj16ieMCt4

[DRG]

Very interesting video

[Gerry1]

Can loaded infantry fire from the APC? And is it combined with the firepower of the APC itself. Thanks.

[Mobhack]

Originally Posted by Gerry1

Can loaded infantry fire from the APC? And is it combined with the firepower of the APC itself. Thanks.

No. Mounted fire (and APC gunports as with the BMP) have always been regarded as worthless