Soviet OOB11 corrections and suggestions

[PvtJoker]

Originally Posted by DRG

There isn't a source in existence that does not say in one way or another that ATR were near useless at anything more than point blank range. Wiki, which you like to quote. says......"The PTRD suffered from numerous flaws; the most notable are the lack of penetration versus enemy vehicles and inability to aim accurately "

Useless against tanks, yes, especially later in the war. The Soviet ATRs also appeared relatively late in numbers and by that time the Germans were already retiring the Pzkw I and relegating the Pzkw II to recce and other secondary roles.

However, light armored cars and APC halftracks had armor only against rifle caliber ball bullets and ATRs were useful against them at much greater ranges. Not to mention unarmored vehicles. English language sources sometimes have a poor understanding of these finer points, since the only ATR used by the Western Allies was the Boys, which unfortunately was also one of the least effective ones, and also suffered somewhat from the choice of sights (fixed sights to 300/500 yards and later only to 300 yards).

Especially the 20mm ATRs were actually more like man-portable light AT guns and the Germans even designated the 20mm Solothurn as such (official designation was 2,0 cm PaK). The Soviet 14.5mm ATRs on the other hand replicated the ballistic performance of the 20mm ATRs on a lighter package (especially the PTRS) thanks to the use of tungsten-core bullets. Well, not all of the performance: the behind-the-armor effects of 14.5mm bullets were noticeably inferior to 20mm projectiles.

Originally Posted by DRG

but someone else, a fan obviously, wrote the PTRS write up "The 14.5 mm armour-piercing bullet has a muzzle velocity of 1013 m/s and devastating ballistics. It can penetrate an armour plate up to 40 mm thick at a distance of 100 meters" and it also claims the effective range against armour vehicles is 800m .

Not just a "fan" but someone who has read Russian sources. 800 meters was a quite realistic range against light AFVs. 40mm at 100 meters at 0 degrees is the penetration number commonly given by Russian sources.

Originally Posted by DRG

Even at the current range your best AP pen could go as high as 5 for PBR and stay at 4 all the way to 250 yards which by all accounts this would be unrealistically HIGH and increasing the range beyond what we have now only pushes that unrealistically high potential penetration even further so while the accuracy we have now is too low and will be adjusted there is no justification for increasing the range to widen the potential 4 pen zone even further than it is now

The normal penetration should be still 25 mm (3) at 500 meters:

http://www.russianammo.org/Russian_A...e_145mm.html#4

I think you are quoting the maximum possible AP penetration above, which Andy has said one can pretty much ignore, since it is so unlikely. With current range the normal penetration at 550 meters is 0, which like I wrote, clearly does not make any sense in light of available data and ballistics science. The 14.5mm bullets were not high drag APCR projectiles!

Originally Posted by DRG

Edit........ as for "had adjustable sights up to 1,500 meters ".... that's nice. The Lee Enfield had adjustable sights up to 1300 yards and the 98k has sights that go to 2000m so how high the adjustable sights can be adjusted is worthless information in game terms and in real life

Don

Those settings were for volley/area fire, which was a standard part of infantry small unit tactics prior to WW1, not for targeting individual soldiers. Machine guns were not very common when those rifles were designed and it was not realized by anyone how much they would dominate the battlefield, especially at ranges above 500 meters. Institutional inertia and general conservatism of armies carried on such settings even to post-WW1 period in many cases.

As for ATRs, they were supposed to target vehicles, which are rather bigger targets than even standing soldiers. ATR bullets also had better external ballistics (flatter trajectory i.e. lower bullet drop) than normal rifle bullets, which meant that errors in evaluating the range were not as serious. So while I agree that a setting of 1,500 meters might be slightly optimistic without a telescopic sight, a fact remains that hitting vehicular targets at 1000+ meters was certainly possible for an experienced user.

[Pibwl]

Promised suggestions for the Soviet OOB (I know, that you'd prefer, that I wouldn't keep the promise this time, but I'll limit myself comparing with my notes anyway )

The list may seem somehow long, but they are mostly easy and quick to apply. If they're not - leave them.

017 T-28 M1932, 020 T-28 M1938, 225 T-28e M1939, 544 T-28e M1939 - they have swapped pictures.
Proper picture for longer L-10 gun tanks (20, 225, 544) is 25592.
Proper picture for short KT-28 gun variant could be 076, but it shows a variant with KT-28 and armour screens in fact (which BTW could be added) - while 017 has standard armour. I'm attaching a parade photo with standard armour.

017 with short gun and standard armour was definitely used after 12/38 still (some 1942?). Same for a screened variant.

020 with L10 gun should have exactly the same armour, as standard 017 T-28 with KT-28 (T-28 armour issue was discussed in the Finnish thread).


021, 651 T-35 M1939 - picture shows T-35 prototype. M1939 should have conical turrets (I'm attaching a proposal)

028 Valentine VII - photo is Valentine 6pdr, I'm attaching 2pdr. Same for 312, 539

041 BA-10 - crew should be 4 (2). According to a book on medium AC by M. Kolomiets, ammo for gun was 49 (now 34).

047 45mm L46 AT-Gun - better picture is 00049 - current 99, used by the Finnish, has atypical camo.

052 76.2mm 02 Hwtzr - it should have a single-tail icon, best would be 2111
BTW: if it wasn't corrected in weapons' ranges thread, the weapon was designated only "obr.02", not 00/02 (and there should be "." after "obr" - it's an abbreviation).

058 SG43 MMG [2] - photo 14124 is Maxim. Correct is eg.108 or 29370
Same for 442,612

BTW: I won't correct Polish LWP oob now, but all SG43 there have DShK picture.

059 DShK HMG [2] - the photo 32006 is tank version, not infantry HMG. Correct is eg. 29371.
Same for 444, 613 and Hungary and Yugoslavia using DShK.

074 BM-8 Katyusha - according to Russian books, produced from 8/41, used in combat maybe month-two later (now 1/42). Truck variant on ZiS-6 had 36 rockets (now 24) (BM-8-36), and late war one from 1942 on US trucks - even 48 (BM-8-48).

089 ZSU-M17 - I'm attaching a Soviet photo (without original, but I've made it long ago).

092 M3A1 Scout Car - delivered from 1942 (I haven't found info when exactly) (now 3/43). They were armed in Soviet service with original .50 and .30 Browning, not DShK and DT.
Most had no PTRD - maybe there should be two units made.


93 M29 Weasel - I could not find any mention on M29 in Russian sources to be delivered.
(On the other hand, the DUKW was).

94 FA-I - serial production started only in 2/33 (now 1/30) (only in 1932 a prototype was made). Used until 1942 at least (now 8/41). I'm attaching a photo of Soviet cars.
Changing its availability would demand creation of some earlier armoured car - most typical early one was BA-27.

BA-27: quite good icon is 167, armament like 170 MS-1/T-18 tank (40 rounds); armour 1 all around (8mm); size 3; speed 45 km/h; crew 4; used 1/30-end of 1941. I'm attaching a picture.


157 Partisan MG - does MG-34 in the first place mean, that this unit has 8 MGs?

169, 485 KV-II - there was no KV-II with 122mm howitzer - all had 152 mm.
These early ones should differ from "KV-IIB" by a lack of BMG. They also had a turret with a slanted front, but there's no information, if they were differences in protection (BTW: the Russians invariably write the name: KV-2, and KV-II"B" is a German designation).
Actually, first ones were shipped to Finland in 3/40.

170 MS-1/T-18
171 MS - both should have the same name (preferably MS-1/T-18) and same armament, with CMG.
There was only from 96 to 104 rounds for a gun in different models (now 120+40)

Picture 190 shows some later prototype with different chassis, proper one is 188.

177 T-18m - T-18M remained only a prototype. 45mm gun was fitted only to immobile tanks used as bunkers.

181 BT-7 M1935 - picture shows later M.1937 with conical turret. Correct is 27830 or 27831, although they're drawings.

196 76mm L51 AT-Gun - the picture 14100 seems to be short 76mm M1927 infantry gun. Correct one for ZiS-3 is 101, possibly 14139 as 282 unit (although there are no details seen).
ZiS-3 was not L/51, but L/41.
Same for unit 281

230 Ammo truck - picture is WWI Italian Fiat, better would be typical Zis-5 165

254 LMG Section - since it's heavy infantry, does MG in first three slots mean, that it has 10+1+1 LMgs?..

273 Para SG43 MMGs - picture shows Mamim

282 76.2mm 42 Hwtzr - I suggest name 76.2mm ZiS-3 FG.

288 SU-76P - according to a Russian book on T-26, it had no official designation, but it was usually known in documents as "SU-T-26 or SU-26, T-26-SU, or just SU-76" (without P, but it would cause confusion with later SU-76 SP-gun).
It should have radio code 1, since it was a non-standard vehicle, used during Leningrad's defence only. Some were used as long, as until 1944 (maybe after advent of more typical vehicles, it should have radio code 3?).

According to http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A1%...D0%90%D0%A3%29 SU-26 was official designation, changed to SU-76P in 1943, but the last info is questioned and lacks source.


310 BA-3 - 11/32 was a scheduled month of completing the prototype, which was not kept. Serial production started only in 10/34

311 BA-6 - serial production started only in beginning of 1936 (now 11/35) (the prototype was made in late 1935).


343 Stalinets - it wasn't armoured
S-65 was manufactured from 1937 (now it starts at 1/39). S-60 was manufactured even earlier, but I don't know when the army started to use them.

344 Boys Carrier - it should have some AAMG as well, eg Bren.
The photo shows British camo and soldiers. I've attached a Soviet one. Same for unit 467.
Later they were seen also with PTRD.
BTW: carriers were mostly known as Mk.I or Mk.I Universal in Soviet documents.

347 25mm AA-Gun - it's some Western gun on a photo, without wheeled carriage. I'm attaching a photo.

352 76.2mm obr36 IG - long F-22 divisional gun rather wasn't used as infantry gun after the war, especially, that their rate of extinction was high... IMO it should be removed (or replaced in next season with 76.2mm obr43 IG (photo 29367, range 4200 m - in fact it was worse, than old obr27 IG (8500m), only lighter)

353 76.2mm 36 Hwtzr - it was produced from late 1936 (might enter service in 1937) - now starts at 11/39.
Same for 357.

356 105mm obr 37 IG - available Russian books on WW2 artillery don't mention such gun.


366, 367 122mm 31 Hwtzr - it was a gun, not howitzer - better name would be "122mm obr31 gun" or "122mm 31/37 gun" or "122mm A-19 gun".
Icon should have split trail (2123 with proper long barrel, or 2103).
In fact, in 1933 only 3 experimental guns were made, and first series of 27 guns was made in 1935 (now 6/33) (it concerns original obr.31 gun, obr.31/37 was produced from 1937, but there's no difference in game terms)

370 122mm 38 Hwtzr - icon should have split trail (German one uses 59)

375, 400 37mm L40 AT-Gun - there were only 506 guns in 1936, and they were being replaced by 45mm guns, so it's unlikely, that any survived in combat units after 1941, maximum 1942 (now 12/45). BTW, according to Russian sources it was L/45 gun.

Probably a correct photo is 28050 (unless it's a Japanese gun, but it looks good anyway), or I'm attaching other photo.


410 Yak-3 Ubiytsa - I've never seen in Russian sources nickname "Ubiytsa" ("killer"), also Google don't indicate such Russian name in connection with Yak-3

412 P-39Q Britchik - picture is P-63 (picture of Soviet P-39 is 14020, used by unit 85)

429 G-5 - picture is Italian WWI MAS torpedo boat. I'm attaching a proposal, also with rockets.

463, 464 BA-20 - according to Russian books, a production started only in 7/1936 (now 10/35). They were sure used much longer as armoured cars (now 12/41) - produced until 7/42, and over 1500 were made. Some survived until the war with Japan.
Speed is quoted as 90 km/h (now 25).

Photo is actually Finnish FAI (http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/FAI_1.jpg ) - I'm attaching a proposal.


508, 509 Partisan MG - have multiplied MGs?

538 M3 s - redundant space (M3s or M3S)

586 STZ-5 - produced from 1937, mass from 1939 (now 10/41)

588 76.2mm K/DPR RG - a picture is actually 65mm prototype RPG - photos are here: http://cris9.narod.ru/rva_bpk.htm .
Correct abbreviation for recoilless gun is DRP (DRP K would be better order), but in fact it had a designation BPK (battalion gun of Kurchevsky).

593 OT-27 - according to a Russian book, produced from late 1932 (now 6/35). It had 32-36 l of mixture (enough for 30 shots or 28 seconds). It also should have DT BMG.

807 T-5 - might be called T-5 Pantera - a manual was titled: 'T-V ("Pantera")' (or "Pantyera", or "Pantiera", depending on transcription).

808 T-6 - might be called T-6 Tigr. Used in combat at least from 1/44 (now 3/44) [book by M.Kolomiets on captured vehicles]

809 T-38(t) - they were known as Praga (according to a Soviet wartime manual)

BTW: Stug was usually known as Artshturm in documents [Kolomiets book] (Maybe "Artshturm III F"?)

That's all as for the Soviets this season I guess...

Michal

[Pibwl]

Pictures. Also captured German vehicles.

[DRG]

508, 509 Partisan MG - have multiplied MGs?

No - it must be an infantry prime (weapon class 1) in slot 1 to get the number of men multiplier. It's OK the way it is and has been for over a decade